What spec of machine do I need?

[Dragoncrusader]

Hi Guys
About to upgrade the old machine here in the UK and I am posting this to ask what spec of machine I need to look at. Also any suggestions as to the best place to buy.

I would like to run RTW:BI with huge units and the higher settings for the graphics also the higher settings of MTW2. What do I need?

I prefer GeForce cardsas I have heard that ATI ones do strange things.

cheers

[Lemur]

ATI makes very nice cards, so don't believe anybody who says different.

Nvidia has the lead in two areas: drivers and heat/power consuption. In other words, they work wonders with their drivers, and they release them much faster than ATI. Also, their current manufacturing process allows them to release cards that consume less power, and therefore run cooler. Beyond that it's a wash; both ATI and Nvidia make a great product.

One thing that would be nice to know -- what screen resolution do you like to use? If you're looking to max everything at 1600x1200, that's a very different story than if you're looking to rock out at 800x600.

[Dragoncrusader]

Thanks for replying.
I use a Phillips LCD monitor with a resolution of 1024 x 768 so we are looking at a screen (even if updated) in the middle of the range.

I am cautious about the ATI cards because I also play Combat Mission and the forums there report that the fog effects do not work with ATI cards despite several attampts at work arounds. This may seem a minor quibble but when you are leading a battalion charge against two MG42s, you need all the help you can get!

cheers

[Lemur]

At 1024x768 you should be able to get away with a mid- to low-end card. One more question -- doe your current mobo have an AGP or a PCI slot for the videocard? If you're not sure, you could just post your current videocard model, and we'll be able to work it out.

[Dragoncrusader]

My current machine is a Dell Dimension 4550 Pentium(R) 4 2.53 Ghz, 256 RAM with a NVIDIA GeForce4 MX420 card in a PCI slot.

This will run RTW:BI in the small unit size with most of the graphics detail set to medium or in the large unit size with the graphics set to low. So it could be better and I fear it may struggle with MTW2.

[Beirut]

I had almost the same setup and I upped to an AMD64-3000, 512RAM/9800Pro and an AGP MB. I saw a huge difference in performance.

The benefits to this upgrade are lost cost, good solid performance with almost every game, and proven components.

If you've got the cash, though, the sky's the limit. What's the budget, low, medium, or "dad's paying for it"?

[Lemur]

What's the budget, low, medium, or "dad's paying for it"?

As a dad, I resent that remark. I also resemble that remark. Does this mean that if I spend too much on PC gear, I can shrug it off and say dad's paying for it? Even if I'm him? There's something recursive and scary about this line of reasoning ...

[edit]

Oh, and Dragon, you may run into problems upgrading that machine. Some Dells use non-standard power supplies which make upgrading a real pain in the RAM. There is a silver lining, however. Dell offers upgrades when you trade in their machines, and they will give better in-house credit than you could get for it on Ebay. So you might want to talk to your friendly Dell drone and see how much credit they'll offer you on an upgrade.

When you get the new Dell, wipe the hard drive immediately. Then load a fresh copy of Windows. It's a lot easier to do it that way than to sort through all of the shovelware Dell pours onto the hard drive. Trust me, I've tried it both ways when helping out my friends and neighbors.

[Dragoncrusader]

Hi Lemur
I was aware that Dells do not upgrade easily and so was looking at replacing it. I do not mind getting another Dell so will find out what they can do for me as one option. Option two is to buy a machine that can be upgraded in the future.

I am trying to stay off the question of budget and to keep focussed on the minimum spec of machine that is needed to run RTW on huge unit size with most of the graphic effects on and the same also for MTW2. If I know that then I can probably get a deal on a "last years model" or some other way to keep the cost down.

For instance is 512k RAM sufficient or do you need to go up a step? What sort of processor is best and if I look for a mid range graphics card - what am I looking for?
cheers

[Beirut]

I am trying to stay off the question of budget and to keep focussed on the minimum spec of machine that is needed to run RTW on huge unit size with most of the graphic effects on and the same also for MTW2. If I know that then I can probably get a deal on a "last years model" or some other way to keep the cost down.

For instance is 512k RAM sufficient or do you need to go up a step? What sort of processor is best and if I look for a mid range graphics card - what am I looking for?
cheers

Unfortunately, it's all about the budget.

RAM is cheap. Get a Gig.

For game CPUs, AMD rules. Some of their lower end 64bit CPUs can be bought very cheap and give great performance.

As for the video card, a lot depends on whether you are going AGP or PCI-E. AGP will save you money and allow you good range of medium to high power cards. PCI-E will cost more but then the best ($$$) cards will then be available.

For example, an AGP setup with an AMD64-3500/1024RAM/7800GS-AGP is a hot system that you could get for a reasonable price.

[Lemur]

Dragon, I second everything Beirut just said. 512 megs of RAM is sub-par these days; a gig is minimum wage for gaming. And like B said, RAM is cheap, so why not go for it?

And he's absoultely right, a comination of a lower-end AMD64 chip with an Nvidia card will make all gaming a breeze. I don't know your budget, but the 7800GT is a great AGP card, and the 7900GT is a great PCI card (although possibly more than you need).

Once again, Beirut is right. We need to have some notion of your budget to go much further.

[Dragoncrusader]

Hi Guys
thanks for your suggestion so far. However I would like to know what the suggested machine actually does with RTW. Does it run the game with units on huge unit size with all the effects switched on, or does it do something less than this?

With regard to budget, I had not given it any thought and have not bought a computer for a few years, so I am a bit out of touch with current prices. So I could spend up to £2,000 on just the tower but would prefer to spend the minimum to do the job and then have money over to upgrade the screen, speakers, etc.

cheers

[Proletariat]

For 2K£ these guys could find you a monster. Personally (and I'm definately not very tech savvy), I would sink as much cash into the things you can touch and see and hear. Since these are the things you are actually interacting with, I think it makes the most sense to have a mouse that best suits the games you play, a set of speakers that brings out a good game-soundtrack's atmosphere, and then a dazzling monitor.

With a budget like yours, I think you could put together a real stunner. Good luck.

[Beirut]

For 2K£ these guys could find you a monster. Personally (and I'm definately not very tech savvy), I would sink as much cash into the things you can touch and see and hear. Since these are the things you are actually interacting with, I think it makes the most sense to have a mouse that best suits the games you play, a set of speakers that brings out a good game-soundtrack's atmosphere, and then a dazzling monitor.

With a budget like yours, I think you could put together a real stunner. Good luck.

What she said.

2000P is about $4000Cdn. Gah! The gloves are off.

You could put together a real beast with that budget. A system for that budget could be along these lines: (Cdn. funds. Divide in half for pounds)

AMD64-4000 - $400
2 Gigs fast RAM - $300
Asus SLI MB - $250
Nvidia 7800GTX - $700
Viewsonic VX922 LCD screen - $450

This would be a dream system and still leave a lot of budget free for the peripherals; HD, sound card, CD/DVD, good game mouse, HOTAS flightstick system(!), etc.

(The ASUS SLI MB will let you install a second 7800GTX card later if you feel you need the power. But it's been said you need at least an FX-55 CPU -$1000- to fully exploit the power of twin 7800 series cards.)

I think even for $3000 you could build a rocket if you put a little thought into it.

[Dragoncrusader]

Hi Guys,

I have been having a look at one of the guides about Maximum Resolution Fix. If you look in totalwar/data/descr_auto_optimise_options.txt it gives the best set up for any given machine.

Using this I can see that my current machine is fine except for the video card because I cannot get 80 unit size on it. Bumping the card up to 128k gets me the unit size of 80 but still normal detail on units and buildings. Going up another notch gets me high detail on units but not buildings and I would need a 512 card to get both. So option one is to see what my old Dell can take in regards to new graphics cards. The screen resolution is fine.

Following Sod's Law that the Dell will not upgrade, lets look at a new machine. In fact to get unit size of 80 and high effects and unit and building detail only takes:

3 Ghz processor
Vertex shader 2
512 video card
256 RAM

My current screen resolution is fine though it COULD go up to 2048 by 1536. So it looks like a new screen would be a good buy and I could get a larger size.

Your point about RAM is excellent as other games I play require 512 RAM so a 1024 RAM seems worthwhile. This seems pretty much in line with Beiruts suggested

For example, an AGP setup with an AMD64-3500/1024RAM/7800GS-AGP is a hot system that you could get for a reasonable price.

So the next question is where in the UK would I get it?
cheers

PS
I have just seen your latest post Beirut! Thanks for that.

[Beirut]

Make sure your new video card supports the Shader 3 option. The Nvidia 6800 cards and up do, as well as the ATI-1800s and up. For my money I would not buy the lesser series cards that support Shader 3, like the ATI 1600 (bad reviews) or the Nvidia 6600 (better choices available). Many of the new games make heavy use of Shader 3. The ATI 1900 is the king of the hill as far as Shader 3 goes. But the cooling fan is very, very loud. My 7800GS AGP handles Shader 3 and is quieter than my 9800Pro.

Also, don't be fooled by the AMD64 specs that say these cards only run at about 2.2 Ghz. They run as fast as much higher clocked Pentium chips. Conventional wisdom these days is that if you're going to play games - then get an AMD CPU.

Even on beastly machines, resolutions higher than 1600x1200 are usually unrealistic. Also, the R:TW in-game res specs can be changed so that you can define the res you want, regardless of your card, but it's a chore to figure it out. I got 1600x1200 with my 9800Pro. It was gorgeous, but I had to limit the size of my units to avoid getting low FPS.

I get my machines built by my local computer dude. he's good, honest, and I know where he lives. Ask around for reputable computer builders, get references, ask exactly what parts he uses and ask for all the empty boxes when he's finished with your machine, as well as a detailed bill listing those parts and the warranties for the parts as well as the warranties for his work. Don't hand your cash over to some shmuck, make sure you know he's good.

[orangat]

Dragoncrusader,
If you're upgrading the cpu/mb, go with pci-e. Getting a new agp system makes no sense. The 7800GS is a bad buy because its costs the same as the gt but is much slower.

And if you can spring for a A64 4000+, you might as well go for an X2.

[Beirut]

Dragoncrusader,
If you're upgrading the cpu/mb, go with pci-e. Getting a new agp system makes no sense. The 7800GS is a bad buy because its costs the same as the gt but is much slower.

And if you can spring for a A64 4000+, you might as well go for an X2.

You might be right about the CPU. I'm not up on my X2 tech yet.

I disagree about the video card and AGP system though. Granted, PCI-E is the future, but right now there is enough life left in the AGP architecture to warrant buying an AGP system if money is an issue. You can still put together a very good AGP system that will run games well for the forseeable future, and some good deals can be found on AGP equipment. I find staying about a year behind the times gives me a good machine at a good price that still handles all games.

If money is not an issue, than I agree that PCI-E would be the way to go.

[orangat]

You might be right about the CPU. I'm not up on my X2 tech yet.

I disagree about the video card and AGP system though. Granted, PCI-E is the future, but right now there is enough life left in the AGP architecture to warrant buying an AGP system if money is an issue. You can still put together a very good AGP system that will run games well for the forseeable future, and some good deals can be found on AGP equipment. I find staying about a year behind the times gives me a good machine at a good price that still handles all games.

If money is not an issue, than I agree that PCI-E would be the way to go.

Money an issue? pci-e mb's aren't more expensive anymore. Why bother with agp when pci-e mb's costs the same and has an upgrade path.

The pci-e versions of the 6800gt/7600gt/x800xl are available for mid-range gamers on a budget. And they cost as much for equivalent agp cards.

The fastest agp card is probably the x850xt-pe. The agp 7800gs is gimped - it costs the same as the 7900gt but has 8 less pipelines and about 20% slower core and to add to the insult, significantly slower than the x850pe in some benchmarks and games.

[Beirut]

Egads! A vibrant debate.

I bought my BFG AGP 7800GS card for less than the price of an X850XT. They have same pixel and vertex pipelines but the X850XT does not have the Shader 3 option, which is an absolute must for me. I think the 7800GS is a very good card. Then again, so is the X850XT.

I completely agree that AGP is behind PCI-E, but I think AGP still has life in it, more so because good deals can be had on AGP systems. I'm going to be AGP for at least another year and I see no problem running my stuff with the equipment I'll have.

[orangat]

Egads! A vibrant debate.

I bought my BFG AGP 7800GS card for less than the price of an X850XT. They have same pixel and vertex pipelines but the X850XT does not have the Shader 3 option, which is an absolute must for me. I think the 7800GS is a very good card. Then again, so is the X850XT.

I completely agree that AGP is behind PCI-E, but I think AGP still has life in it, more so because good deals can be had on AGP systems. I'm going to be AGP for at least another year and I see no problem running my stuff with the equipment I'll have.

This is not really a debate. I'm just stating the obvious.

I'm not saying that agp is bad but its not a reasonable choice for a NEW pc when pci-e mbs and video cards costs the same and have an upgrade path.

There is nothing wrong with the 7800gs card except that it costs almost the same as a 7900gt, has 8 less pipes and 20% slower core. Any reasonable person would get the card which is approximately 40% faster in newer games for the same amount of money.

[Beirut]

Any reasonable person would get the card which is approximately 40% faster in newer games for the same amount of money.

[orangat]

Is getting a faster card (by approximate 40%) which costs about as much the reasonable thing to do? Is getting a mb with an upgradable interface which doesn't cost more over agp designs reasonable?

[Beirut]

Boy, you sure do make it hard to agree with you.

I utterly, completely, blisteringly, and unadulteratedly agree that PCI-E is the better choice.

My point was merely that a good AGP system, given that the tech heads are switching to PCI-E, can be got for a good price, making it a viable option for someone looking for a system that is both affordable and powerful enough to play the newer games.

Now be nice. I've got more rhinos and I'm not afraid to use them!

[orangat]

edit - double post

[orangat]

You imply that agp cards and mb's are cheaper but they are not. I suppose it depends on where you live but it is certainly not a reasonable choice in US.

Newegg has only 10 agp mb's but 125 pci-e mb's supporting 939. And there is virtually no difference in prices. There are rock bottom cheap pci-e mbs for $60 as well. The msrp for the agp 7800gs is $350 but the street price is typically around $300 which is the same for the faster pci-e 7800gt. The pci-e 7900gt is about $320.

So why is agp a good price if it is 40% slower in the case of the 7800gs? All I'm doing is stating the obvious.

[Proletariat]

Need a hug?

[Beirut]

Need a hug?

Yes I do, I'm feeling quite down at the moment.

Me and my AGP video card are going to go have a good cry together...

[Geezer57]

I'm having a laugh while you're crying ( ) ... so sorry.

[orangat]

Does post count determine credibility on this website?

I corrected some myths/misinformation in the apothecary section about how 64-bit doesn't mean processing twice as much data as 32-bit per clock, how to properly measure cpu temps instead of going to the bios, how the PIII has a thermal protection circuit and how different PCIe types (1x-16x) have different physical slot sizes. All while long time member JAGirl was spewing out longwinded full page whinny rants in broken English together with her pom pom cheering team from Brokeback Mtn. I'm surprised its taken this long for JAG to get the ban.

PCIe components don't cost extra, is very common in current mb's, outnumbers agp mb choices on newegg by 12:1, is the upgradable interface for future needs and in the case of the 7800/7900gt performs approx 40% faster than its similarly priced AGP equivalent. PCI-e is certainly not esoteric and only for tech-heads.

[TosaInu]

There's truth in many things.

PCI-e is the future path, the fastest cards are found there and, just peeked at a site, sometimes cheaper than AGP equivalents too. Asus EN6600GT/TD PCI-E is cheaper than Asus N6600GT/TD AGP, same chipset, same RAMamount (I assume they are the 'same' cards, but I'm not a pro).

There's undoubtly the other way around too: PCI-e gfxcards being slightly more expensive (depends what you want and what you can get where). Price difference is only a few or 10's of US$, but that's only irrelevant when you can/are willing to spend extra cash.

There's another thing though, and that can save you quite some pennies, or demand the investment of more (depends on your choice).

When you already got a decent AGP system (benchmarks will blow it away, but what matters is your own requirements and experience) and just need a little boost, buying a new AGP card is the more economic solution (short, med or long term depends on what you do now and next year). Buying a faster and cheaper/more expensive PCI-e card also requires at least a new PCI-e mobo.

When talking about new complete systems: PCI-e is the future, several customers want that (the fastest, the best, the latest), the previous generation parts are then used to assemble cheap entry- up to midrange systems. Some suppliers will make it very cheap, just to get rid of their old stock.

Cheap PCI-e systems may be the better bang for bucks, but when it costs an extra $75, some people will think again.