Is the public THAT stupid?

[RJV]

Would RTW released with EB-style units have sold as well as RTW actually did? Probably would have been pretty close. I doubt whether you'd have heard ANY complaints from PC Gamer and the review fraternity along the lines of 'where are the head hurlers?', and 'I wish this game had flaming pigs'. It would have got the same gushing response. We all bought the game knowing it had daft units didn't we? I suspect the reverse would be largely true.

That said, when you have a publishing deal with the big boys you have to explore the avenues that might get you those extra sales, like head hurlers and units that fit a public perception rather than historical fact.

I would expect there to be some glaring inaccuracies in M2TW, mostly of the 'fantasy unit' type as opposed to a case of poor implementation or lack of research. In other words, a design decision.

But regardless of that, will I care if my crusaders are wearing ray-bans as long as THE GAMEPLAY IS GOOD? No of course not. If the AI is challenging will I worry that a there's a guy over there with a brightly coloured hat instead of a muddy brown one? No.

Just give me a good economy, sensible diplomacy (that has a purpose) and a challenging and tactically aware AI, and the rest will take care of itself.

Cheers,

Rob.

[hellenes]

Would RTW released with EB-style units have sold as well as RTW actually did? Probably would have been pretty close. I doubt whether you'd have heard ANY complaints from PC Gamer and the review fraternity along the lines of 'where are the head hurlers?', and 'I wish this game had flaming pigs'. It would have got the same gushing response. We all bought the game knowing it had daft units didn't we? I suspect the reverse would be largely true.

Agreed on that...

That said, when you have a publishing deal with the big boys you have to explore the avenues that might get you those extra sales, like head hurlers and units that fit a public perception rather than historical fact.

Who has shaped this perception? Maybe the same media that now is bowing to and nurishing it?
The bizzare thing is that games like Full Spectrum Warrior and First to Fight boast their realism as an asset. They advertise as being used by the US army as simulators (same thing that RTW did with Time Commanders and Decisive Battles).
And the Pro Evolution Soccer series have as their central selling point over FIFA the REALISM of the gameplay....
I doubt that it wouldnt be an adverising boost if RTW could claim being as close as possible to Ancient warfare in the looks of the troops.
EA used the BF1941 modders to make BF2 why CA cant do the same?

I would expect there to be some glaring inaccuracies in M2TW, mostly of the 'fantasy unit' type as opposed to a case of poor implementation or lack of research. In other words, a design decision.

And that is IMO a clear demonstration of CA/SEGA's FEAR to sway from the well known road of ignorance and false beliefs.

But regardless of that, will I care if my crusaders are wearing ray-bans as long as THE GAMEPLAY IS GOOD? No of course not.

If you are not playing these games for IMMERSION in the era, IMMERSION in the setting and just for pure challenge IMO youre missing a lot.

If the AI is challenging will I worry that a there's a guy over there with a brightly coloured hat instead of a muddy brown one? No.

Ill have to disagree with you on that the so called "AI" (for marketing purposes so we dont realise how far behind the coding is in that area) will never offer anyone NO challenge without at the same time frustrating with endless stacks of troops and overpowered through sheer bonuses strength peasants that chew knights for breakfast.
Ill sound like a pessimist but the best that I can expect in "AI" coding is for it to improve on the campaign map and overcome the player through sheer stack strength...

Just give me a good economy, sensible diplomacy (that has a purpose) and a challenging and tactically aware AI, and the rest will take care of itself.

Cheers,

Rob.

RTR had 100000 downloads on the first date of release...
Without the modding community this game would end up in the dustbin for alot of people, its a smart move in shortterm for CA to milk the money but this is not how customer relations are being built.
So the rest will not take care for itself. It will take the hard work of many people to raise the design level of the game from the age group that Tim Ansell has set:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...ode=interviews
(3rd video from the top)

As a conclusion I have to say that design affects gameplay as well, the overall focus on twitch gameplay with flashy effects and 0 substance featured in RTW has lead to the high kill/movement speeds, the tiny battlemaps, and most importantly drew resources from code development...
I REALLY wish to be proven wrong with M2TW and my only hope is for it to be moddable enough for the community to give us the game that the publishing beurocrats wont give us.

Hellenes

[RJV]

Hellenes I'm with you on most of your points to be honest.

Public perception is a difficult one. Thing is, when you're dealing with what is essentially ancient history (in the case of the Ptolemies), the average gamer cares not one jot about the accuracy of his egyptian unit. In his (or her) head they have a perception that they all look like anubis warriors out of 'the mummy', and that is that.

But here's the freaky thing - if the egyptian units DIDN'T look like anubis warriors and were in fact historically accurate, would this hurt sales? In my opinion absolutely not. But you try getting that through to a marketing executive...


When I say 'the rest will take care of itself' I am referring to the modding community. I shouldn't have to rely on this community to make my game look better, but in a lot of cases these days this is how it is. Look at X3 as a prime example. If CA get the engine right, I'll be happy with that for a while, and historical accuracy can come later. I'm a keen total war player and have been since shogun day 1, but by no means hardcore (hey, i have kids) - I suspect other more hardcore types want the accuracy as well from day M2TW day1, which is fair enough but I can wait a couple of months. I was heavily into RTR, even modded on their forums for a bit, and playing the vanilla game made me realise just how much work they did.

To be honest I thought MTW VI was challenging on the battlefield. Like I said I'm keen but not hardcore, I don't have the reactions I once did, and I do like it when the 'AI' beats me in a fair-ish fight. I suspect I am years away from a truly challenging AI but it doesn't stop me wanting one!

Cheers,

Rob

[ShadowMagnet]

Now, now hellenes.

You should sooo get out more mate...
Much as I like you guys it seems lives of some of yous revolve around this game exclusively.
Everyone forgets it's only a bloody game and if you don't like it it only means you're not within the target group.
In case you're finding it hard to understand - THE GAME IS NOT FOR YOU. It's over dude, give up.
Make your own game why dontcha.

[hellenes]

Now, now hellenes.

You should sooo get out more mate...
Much as I like you guys it seems lives of some of yous revolve around this game exclusively.
Everyone forgets it's only a bloody game and if you don't like it it only means you're not within the target group.
In case you're finding it hard to understand - THE GAME IS NOT FOR YOU. It's over dude, give up.
Make your own game why dontcha.

Now, now ShadowMagnet.

You should sooo get out more mate...
Much as I like you it seems lives of some of yous revolve around the fans of this game exclusively.
Everyone forgets it's only a bloody fans forum and if you don't like it it only means you're not in the right place.
In case you're finding it hard to understand - THIS FORUM IS NOT FOR YOU. It's over dude, give up.
Go to the .COM why dontcha.

Hellenes

[econ21]

Shadowmagnet and Hellenes, please try to avoid personal attacks.

I think this thread has run its course.

[ShadowMagnet]

Self explanatory, this, hellenes, econ21 et al.
It just winds me up a bit when the game gets a brutal kicking for no reason.
I would just prefer it if all of yous gave it a fair go before statements are made, is all.
Maybe I'm just bitter coz my tenner says CA will let me down no end when push comes to shove. And I'll have to fork out forty quid just to know this for sure...
Nought personal peeps, sorry if I was being mean.

[hellenes]

Self explanatory, this, hellenes, econ21 et al.
It just winds me up a bit when the game gets a brutal kicking for no reason.
I would just prefer it if all of yous gave it a fair go before statements are made, is all.
Maybe I'm just bitter coz my tenner says CA will let me down no end when push comes to shove. And I'll have to fork out forty quid just to know this for sure...
Nought personal peeps, sorry if I was being mean.

Its ok mate
You should see me in Greek forums trying to persuade my AoE/WIII maniac compatriots how amazing (compared to the rest) strategy game RTW is...
You just should understand that this all critisism is coming mainly due to the last traces of hope that remains in us MTW nostalgic folk that CA will return to its roots of immersive and deep strategy games that kept us awake till dawn...and also its the last attempt to awake the concience in developers that worked at MTW since once the game is released its too late...
As I said in the other thread: I REALLY hope to be proven wrong and all my fears to be proven baseless.

Hellenes

[Dooz]

Awwwww


.........*runs off*.........

[econ21]

Thanks, Shadowmagnet and Hellenes - it is good to be able to bring this thread to close on an amicable note.