The problem with Islam

[Reenk Roink]

You mean bisdes the part where the north africans try to capture Spain and the ottamns are on Italys and Germanys doorstep? This is a load of mularky. I fail to see how any of KC points could even be considered a reason why muslims do tthe things they do. I feel no responsibilty and you shouldnt ethier. Using European colonaztion/imprealism is a huge cop out used to make us feel sorry.

Of course they invaded those areas, and there were counter invasions and the sort. My point in that statement was that neither the Muslim or European worlds actually dominated each other until the fairly recent rise of colonialism. If you had read more closely, and stripped yourself of a defensive position that you adopt when I point out certain facts of history between Americans and Natives/Mexicans, you would see that my thesis was that only very recently has the West in any significant way interfered with the 'Muslim world' (as it has for most of the world).

So, first we lump together a massive area of land from the borders of China Morocco and state that they are all somehow the same. I imagine that by the same light they all peacefully converted to Islam

No, we simplify it a bit, and call it the "Muslim World", just as we call Europe the "Western" or "Christian World." We never imply that they are "the same" as they're were feuds between groups all the time only surpassed by the infighting in Europe, or imagine that they all "peacefully converted" when many Muslim rulers prefered having the Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians keep their religion for tax income and many even imposed the tax on converts. These off-topic, obviously anti-Islam comments are thouroughly unnecessary...

Right, the crusades. They were to retake the Holy Land. Remember that christianity was around BEFORE Islam. So they attacked. Revelation I know. And the conquest of the Balklands and Spain by the Muslims appears to also have been ignored.

Again, off topic. And quite a bad way to justify colonialism...

Or is there an actual point to that statement?

Then we appear to sidestep the fact that the Middle East has had despots since at least 500BC!!!

OMG!!!

Probably even before that too...

But perhaps we could cross out "Middle East" and replace it with "Europe" for another true statement...

Or is there an actual point to that statement?

"Better to remain silent and for people to think you are ignorant than to speak and for peple to know you are"

This statement reeks of arrogance and unfortunately, lacks self-awareness...

[rory_20_uk]

Since the topic states that the West is responsible for the problems providing examples of events to refute this is on topic.

Yes, there were feuds, fights and indeed wars in the "Muslim" areas. So how are the wars that the West is involved in are singled out for special consideration? Muslims have been killing each other for a long time without any Christian interference.

The Crusades were mentioned in the initial posting. How can this be off topic? Colonialism? What? The point was again that warfare is not some import from the West.

Yes: there are despots all over the world. Although despot is usually reserved for the Middle East. I did not bother to mention the rest of the world as it is off topic...

Funny, you can state some things are off topic, and the minute I ensure I remain on topic I am ignoring the rest of the world!!

Yes, the statement is very arrogant. I fail to see how it lacks self awareness any more than priests berating their fellow man about what sinners they are. I like the phrase and I will use it. Frankly, I don't care what you think of it.

[Reenk Roink]

Since the topic states that the West is responsible for the problems providing examples of events to refute this is on topic.

Here's the part I refered to as off topic:

I imagine that by the same light they all peacefully converted to Islam

Yes, there were feuds, fights and indeed wars in the "Muslim" areas. So how are the wars that the West is involved in are singled out for special consideration? Muslims have been killing each other for a long time without any Christian interference.

We are not talking about infighting between Christians or Muslims. We are talking about the effect the West has had on the Muslim world. Nobody, not even the original poster, claimed that infighting was a result of the West. I can think of perhaps only one example, and that is the extremely recent sectarian violence that has been surfacing in Iraq.

The Crusades were mentioned in the initial posting. How can this be off topic? Colonialism? What? The point was again that warfare is not some import from the West.

Nobody has stated that warfare is an import of the west. Truly, if such a statement had been uttered, it would be on par with "the Middle East has had despots since at least 500BC!!!"

Yes: there are despots all over the world. Although despot is usually reserved for the Middle East. I did not bother to mention the rest of the world as it is off topic...

Blanket statements will be called out. Saying "the Middle East has had despots since at least 500BC!!!" is not an effective way of detaching the West from their current support of despotic regimes in the Middle East.

Funny, you can state some things are off topic, and the minute I ensure I remain on topic I am ignoring the rest of the world!!

See above...

Yes, the statement is very arrogant. I fail to see how it lacks self awareness any more than priests berating their fellow man about what sinners they are. I like the phrase and I will use it.

In the context in which you used the statement, there was a lack of self awareness (on your part).

Frankly, I don't care what you think of it.

Shucks

[Brenus]

“The French still celebrate the date their Catholics slaughtered their Protistants (isn't that St. Untolerance? ... same as today?).” What??? Where did find this absurdity? I am French, and there is one thing that the French are not proud of, is the St Bathelemy. I normally like what you write, but if all yours information come from the same source, I will start to change my opinion!!!
And again and again, France has the biggest Muslim and Jewish population in Europe. It is probably because they love to be discriminated… Or, perhaps, because they love not to obliged to follow blindly their religion, perhaps because even a Muslim who want to convert, or worst, become atheist want to be able to do it without fear, to be able to eat and smoke during the Ramadan, you know, freedom…

The Uma, the Community of the Believers never existed. You can call it the Islam Nation if you want, there is not one Islam. Even if you know only Shiites and Sunnites, you can deduct that.

The interference of Europe in Islamic countries has nothing to do with Islam, but all with politic. If the French and the English went in Crimea against Russia, it wasn’t because they LOVED the Ottoman Empire but to block the Russian Fleet in the Black Sea.
Sorry, this example doesn’t fit in what you’re pre-supposing…

“The problem with Islam, is that it never had the freedom to become a unified or debating religion” So wrong… Read others books and you will learn that Islam, having not Pope, is one of the most debated Religion… Was. It is due to dictators, using Islam as pretext, who favoured the most reactionary sides of Islam to impose their rules.
Never united under one rule, you said… Never heard of the Ottoman Empire?
And is the Christian religion unified? Did France and Italy, or Spain (both Catholic) never fight each others?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hows this for a revelutionary idea "Islam" and "Christendom" have interferred with each other since the get go. They have warred, traded, exchanged ideas and generally interacted as people tend to do. Yes the West has had a big impact on the East but the reverse is just as true, neither would be remotely the same without a common history with the other.

Some of the past has been bad, some good. The Crusades were a religious war, involving the deaths of pilgrims and the destruction of cities and from the begining to end no one comes out with clean hands. The Reconquesta was a glorified and bloody border war.

Get over it, hereditory guilt and pride are both equally idiotic, the past does not dictate what we do today.

[rory_20_uk]

Bloody well put