The Future... spin-off: Intellectual Property and resource sharing

[Epistolary Richard]

Spun-off from this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=62981

The new game engine and set-up of Rome Total War meant modders could produce even more impressive results than before - however the amount of work that had to go into large-scale mods exploded exponentially. Medieval Total War 2 - with its multiple skins per unit, death-move animations and terrain integrated cities will only add an ever-greater workload to modders who wish to change every aspect of the game.

Collaboration, both within a team and between independent modders, is only going to become more and more important as few if any of us are going to be able to do it all on our own.


One of the pitfalls in collaboration, however, copyright. Unless a modder expressly states otherwise, any work he creates - whether it be a skin, a model, a map, a unit card - cannot be used in another mod made available for public download, it cannot be compiled together in packs, it cannot be developed or made compatible with future versions, it cannot be changed in any way and then made available again.

This means that if others do want to do any of those things then they have to get the permission of the creator. This can be difficult if the creator has retired from the community and is no longer contactable to give his permission.

It's also difficult where a creation was contributed to by several people, each building on the work of the other, as permission has to be gained from all of them.

More complexity is added when someone creates something, but based on the research of others.


We are not short of examples from the RTW modding community. The Modding Legions skins included work from at least four different artists.

The popular Mundus Magnus map was nearly lost to the community, because its creator wasn't contactable when BI was released - therefore no one could convert it either to 1.4 or 1.5.

A huge number of the early RTW texture is now lost to the community because the creators are no longer around. This also means they can't be converted for MTW2 work. Alternatively, people just have to ignore the copyright and hope their acting within the 'wishes' of the creator even though they're not expressed.

Normally, in such cases one member takes it upon himself to breach the copyright for the good of the wider community, but it's not fair for one person to have to expose itself for something many want to happen. After all, the major loser in all these cases is always going to be the community who aren't going to have the same number of quality mods to play with. Nevertheless, we cannot ignore the rights of the creator - for to do so would remove much of the incentive for talented people to release their work if they know it is going to be taken and reused against their wishes while the senior members of the community do nothing.


So what can be done? Here are some things we can consider, but other suggestions greatly encouraged:

- a site-wide 'some rights reserved' presumption, so creators have to expressly state that others cannot use their work, rather than having the default being that nothing can be done.

- an 'expiration' date, either absolute after the first time something was published or if the creator has not been active nor replied to a request for permission for a certain period of time.

- a register of self-declared retired/declared inactive modders who's work can then be reused with proper credit.

- greater guidance for modders as to the different licences that can be offered when a creation is made available for download, with boilerplate paragraphs that they can pick'n'mix as they wish to express their intentions properly at the start - perhaps with an easy symbol or colour guide which links into a fuller text.

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

This topic is a prime example of how modding resources need to be pooled collectively so that they are of use to individuals looking to improve their experiences with RTW.

I've already mentioned in this topic that I'll make units available as individual downloads for those that don't wish to install the mod, but would rather play around with a few new units at a time. Obviously not all of the units, skins, sprites, UI cards etc included with the mod have been created by myself, so I'll only make my own work available.

As pointed out, some modders created their projects a while ago and have since moved onto to other things from RTW. This is frustrating because contacting these members is exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, unless they return to the community and give their explicit permission for their work to be used in other projects.

This idea of sharing modding knowledge and resources is crucial: if Vercingetorix never created his x-pak extractor tool, where would we all be?

[Dol Guldur]

Whilst these concerns are valid, it is also important to consider that some mods are very similar and shared work can destroy the uniqueness of a mod.

Perhaps, some might think, it would have been wise for me:tw, lotr:tw and fa:tw to actually share the same map...it certainly would have saved a lot of time and effort. But this would detract from the uniqueness of each mod and the pride of the teams. Likewise with units etc.

We've had a simple rule for a long time: what any team member creates belongs to the mod. They can't walk off with it. They will remain credited of course, but the model, texture, coding etc. belongs to the Mod.

Having said all that, the enormity of the task of modding is great and the problems ER raises certainly do need a resolution.

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

We've had a simple rule for a long time: what any team member creates belongs to the mod. They can't walk off with it. They will remain credited of course, but the model, texture, coding etc. belongs to the Mod.

Interesting point there DG, I'm in a different boat to yourself with regards to this aspect of modding work. Since I'm a one-man team, any generous donations, submissions, requests etc are fully credited to the author rather than to the mod. The reason for this is because I did not create the aspect under consideration, so cannot take the credit for this aspect that has been created / modified etc.

So technically, anything which is not my own work needs to be fully credited before any release (including beta versions) are made available for download. This is so that the mod user is completely aware of which aspects of the mod were created by a particular author, and to ensure these aspects are distinguishable from one another.

[hellas1]

Hello Modding Community!

This is wonderful! Discussion of mod logistics!

I'm 200% convinced that if modding teams collaborated with one another in exchange of ideas, people, info., etc. ALL mods proposed would be completed.

The 3d artisans, coders, historians, moral supporters, etc. could make EVERY mod come true!

There, in my opinion, is no truly valid reason as to why mods should "die."
Not with the resources I've witnessed here in this forum.
Not acceptible.

The stuff is here folks, let's share. Let the walls down, Drop all egos.

Don't "compete," co-operate.

Sincerely, Hellas1

[Kagemusha]

I think there is already going on lots of sharing in private conversations between Modders.For example other modders have helped out our team very much,like The NTW2 team for giving us the original musket firing effect,or Vercingetorix helping us out with building problems with BI 1.6 or little while a go when we were suffering from Map related problems we had a chat between modders from FATW,RESGESTAE,Bysantium Totalwar and Ran No Jidai that helped a lot debugging our map related problems.I think that the sharing of discoveries is essential so we dont have to all make the same mistakes all the time.
About the MTW2 i think that the most mods will be Medieval based like most of RTW mods were based on the time frame of RTW,but making total covnversions to it will once again need more work force.But for the good side of things,i also believe that the release of MTW2 will also bring in more new modders to fill the ranks of the modding community.

[Dol Guldur]

That is true (and we were glad to help!), and it is also true we have shared discoveries; but even discoveries get lost when the forum is not as categorized as it should be.

I wonder if there would be any benefit in having a forum for modders who are members of projects? Perhaps this would just create more confusion but of late on the forums the advanced/intermediate modding questions seem to have diminished (esp. at TWC and SCC) and the board is now more the province of the newbies. Presumably the more experienced modders are chatting privately?

Perhaps two venues of "modding questions" are needed? Or maybe a forum for mod management staff? There are advantages and disadvantages both ways I suppose but I think it would aid in the sharing of IP at least.

[Lusted]

I am one of those who was used peoples work without their express permission as they are no longer active, but i make sure they are fully credited in the readme. A prime example of this is warpsite and now webbirds work. They both released top quality skin packs for the community, and i use many of their skins in my mod. But now both are inactive, webbird only recently becoming inactive. So i have to try and make sure they are fully credited whilst also doing what i feel is best for the community. We need to have a better way of expressing how we want modders work used, and whether they would be willing for it to be used after they retire.

[Dol Guldur]

Maybe some options when people upload files?

Or there could be a forum term stating something like "In uploading my work I understand that, should I retire from the community or become otherwise uncontactable for a period of one month or more, that any file uploaded will pass into the public domain unless I specify otherwise in the upload notes...blah blah blah"

Or a time limit from date of upload.

[Lusted]

That would work, at the moment people lke me are having to make choices of a)using skins without makers explicit permission as they are no longer active, or b)not using skins as can't get explicit permission.

[Kagemusha]

This is just an idea,but what do you guys think if there would be one more hidden forum in hosted mods section where modders from different teams could talk about problems and share the little stuff that nobody will start writing tutorials about?That could be a fine start?Also i think it could be a fine way to let the members of different modding teams to learn to know eachother better?Or should all this happen in here in the public section of forums?Opinions?

[Lusted]

In the other thread about this, i posted links to a couple of threads where i discussed a Guild which would incorporate this.

[Dol Guldur]

It is an idea I support Kage, and I think by its very nature it would bring modders and the mod teams closer together and solve perhaps a lot of other problems along the way. The question would be what would qualify one for entrance, and if being a member of a hosted mod alone (TWC, Guild, SCC etc.) then what would the qualifications be for the recognition of a project in the first place and how would all the forums agree on it?

Or would each forum have its own Modders' Haven? ;)

[Kagemusha]

I hope ER or Myrddraal will comment how they would feel about this?

[Duke John]

This is just an idea,but what do you guys think if there would be one more hidden forum in hosted mods section where modders from different teams could talk about problems and share the little stuff that nobody will start writing tutorials about?That could be a fine start?

Hell no! I was a long time lurker at the Org before I started posting. I believe in my first post I showed an Uruk-Hai unit for the M:TW engine which encouraged Wellington to develop his unitmaker tool. Using hidden forums would exclude lurkers from valuable information and I can't see any good reason for doing that. If anything we should encourage sharing knowledge and a hidden forum is definitely not the way.

[Duke John]

Double post, crappy connection...

One more point, let's not add too many politics to the modding community. I'd hate to see qualifications, memberships of an "elite" group. At TWC they tried it in a way with TTO and I can't say that it's a loss that they failed.

[Lusted]

My idea for the hidden forum was not for people to hide information in, it was for mod teams to be able tod iscuss problems, and see if members of other mods could help it out. It could also be a testing ground for mod tools and tutorials before being released tot he public to mkae sure they work/give proper instructions.

[Epistolary Richard]

I wonder if there would be any benefit in having a forum for modders who are members of projects?

Such a forum would be relatively simple to set-up, but it would mean that mod leaders would have to send a request to admin to add new members to the user group that would access it.

But I wonder to what extent modders would be willing to discuss things with members of other mod teams that they wouldn't be willing to discuss with the wider community? Presumably if they don't want to discuss a matter within the community in the first place, then it is because it is something they want to develop within their own mod. One would imagine that members of fellow mod-teams would be far more able to understand and implement such an idea rather than other members of the community.

Perhaps two venues of "modding questions" are needed? Or maybe a forum for mod management staff? There are advantages and disadvantages both ways I suppose but I think it would aid in the sharing of IP at least.

The principal disadvantage to my mind would be a great 'brain drain' from the regular modding forums. How do new modders learn? From reading the words of people who are more experienced - if those members with experience are all somewhere else in a hidden forum then it really would be the case that the regular modding areas would just have beginner questions asked on it.

We need to have a better way of expressing how we want modders work used, and whether they would be willing for it to be used after they retire.

I agree.

Or there could be a forum term stating something like "In uploading my work I understand that, should I retire from the community or become otherwise uncontactable for a period of one month or more, that any file uploaded will pass into the public domain unless I specify otherwise in the upload notes...blah blah blah"

Have a look at www.creativecommons.org - I found it quite interesting.

The question would be what would qualify one for entrance, and if being a member of a hosted mod alone (TWC, Guild, SCC etc.) then what would the qualifications be for the recognition of a project in the first place and how would all the forums agree on it?

These are all good questions.

and share the little stuff that nobody will start writing tutorials about?

I do wonder why people aren't writing tutorials about such stuff. Tutorials don't have to be all mega-all inclusive. There are many smaller guides about.

[Epistolary Richard]

My idea for the hidden forum was not for people to hide information in, it was for mod teams to be able tod iscuss problems, and see if members of other mods could help it out.

I think the obvious question in response to that would be why could not the regular modding forums be used to discuss problems? Is it that it would become lost amongst other questions? Or is it because members of mod teams would be less likely to see it? In which, perhaps the real problem is that modders visit the regular modding forums less once they join a team with a hidden development forum.

[Lusted]

The hidden forum would be used as in helping with the problem the mod team may reveal bits of the mod they would not want made available to the general public, and as the hidden forum would only be able to be accessed by trusted members of mods there would be no danger of it getting out befroe the mod team wants it to.

[Kagemusha]

I understand if you guys dont like my proposal.But my intention was not to create somekind of "elitist"modder forum.But to create a place where different mod teams could share their problems and ideas between the teams and also get to know eachother better.About the problems i believe the problems that would be the kind that would be specific on some part of the mod that the certain mods wouldnt like to show to whole community at that stage.Also i wouldnt have anykind of problem if some mod teams wouldnt want to participate on it.I dont believe it would result in holding back information,but spreading of information faster and also the modders could beta test the new things and theorys lot faster.But if Dol Guldur and me are the only ones that think that would create anything positive,then i guess thats the way it is.
EDIT:Lusted beat me to it mostly.

[Bwian]

A private mods forum would be just about the worst idea imaginable. It's a perfect way to exclude ne talent unless it

a) joins a mod team
b) gets allowed access

I can see what you would want to achieve, but it would be a bad idea. Why can't these things be discussed in open forum, or via PM. Whether it's intentional or not, you would be creating an 'elite' for which you would have to 'qualify'. Just don't see how it would help anyone.

Also...when it comes to mods ahring ideas and helping each other... it seems to be happening anyway! We have a forum for asking questions, and people do get help there. Why mess?

As far as intellectual property goes, I have had some bad experiences with this elsewhere. I did some work on a mod for a sim ( I won't name it ) and included some strict instructions as to what could or could not be done with it with regard to putting it in 'packs' of work etc. I basically said DON'T! I also asked that it remain unchanged. Both requests were immediately ignored once I became inactive. I felt SOOOOO annoyed. It got stuck in a pack with a load of unbalanced part finished content, and got mucked about with despite a lot of effort on my part to get it realistic.

you can't assume that just because someone leaves the scene you immediately have a community 'right' to claim the work.

On the modders side, they have to conside this option, and should produce a 'readme' that states what use they would accept for their work. whether it could be included in someones mod or not... or whether they would allow someone to modify their work or change it in any way.

That way, the message is clear, and the modders wishes should be respected.

If, for example, I included a readme which said:

"This mod work cannot be used in any other mod or release, and must remain unchanged. If you wish to use this work in your mod, please contact the author"

I would expect the work to stay out of others mods unless I said otherwise. If I vanished from the scene, then that would be that.

If, however, I was less picky, I could say:

"Feel free to use the contents of this release in your mod. Please ensure full credit is given on any release and include this readme in the credits. IF you modify or change the work in any way, lpease ensure you give credit for the original work, and state what changes you made"

The matter of work submitted to a mod team should be made clear when someone joins a mod. They should be told clearly if they retain IP for the work they do, and if they leave the mod, whether the mod retains use of the work. Any mod leader should think about this up front when recruiting!

IP is a sensitive subject, and should remain flexible. The creator has the right to decide what the community can do with their efforts...it is only fair! In return, the author MUST make it clear what they consider to be fair use of their hard work. God forbid it ever happen...but nothing kills community spirit faster than somebody stealing another modders work, spending 5 minutes messing with the paintwork, and then calling it their own.

[Kagemusha]

I see that this isnt getting any wind.Like i sayed this would be a platform for us to do the same that we are doing already with various messengers. I dont see how this would prevent information coming to here for example.Mostly in problem solving situations the many brains can solve a problem in many cases lot faster then only one.Who would be hurted by that? If this kind of platform would be in existence do you guys think that the results would be only kept in as some secret information by modding teams.I dont think so.How i see it,if the modding community is open like it claims to be the developer teams should collaborate more in the future and at the same time making everybodys job easier.But then also i may be wrong.Just an idea like i sayd before.Just an idea

[Epistolary Richard]

I think having closer relationships between modding teams overall is very laudable - and I think there are obvious benefits when they do so. I'm interested in discussing all ideas that may encourage it. The concept of a hiden forum raises several questions which don't have obvious answers.

In return, the author MUST make it clear what they consider to be fair use of their hard work.

Perhaps a required field for files made available for download?

[Dol Guldur]

I think modders must certainly accept that when they join a mod then they are bound by the terms. Of course, the Mod must make clear what those terms are. If someone joined my mod and we worked with him for a while and then he walked off with his creations I would take a dim view of it (and let all the community know he violated the terms and might do the same to you!).

Likewise, Mod Teams should not abuse members' IP - and credit should always be rightly given.

For those who release solo packs, tools etc. then yes a required field in the upload form would be great although there should be default terms for those who do not fill them out properly.

Regarding the building of bridges between modding teams...most Mod forums are made up of a private dev. forum and a public forum. Could there be a third forum (probably with just one thread) for all Mods that would be private and for the purpose of "inter-dev. team" communication? This would move away from a centralised and potentially "elitist" idea but be there for when needed - it would no doubt, as time passes and relations build, precipitate sharing of resources and strengthen the mods. I think it would be a powerful resource. All dev team members could have access to such a forum and have the opportunity to post in the counterpart forum in other mod forums. Maybe if the Guild started this off it might be an example to TWC etc.

[Duke John]

All dev team members could have access to such a forum

Are only members of modding teams supposed to be knowledgeable on modding that only they are allowed? Both Bwian and I have worked on our own on modding projects. Would that mean that we (quite experienced modders) would not be allowed? If we were allowed on what grounds would you forbid a less experienced modder to enter the hidden forum?

I would much rather see questions and research being seperated into 2 subforums.


About IP, I agree with Bwian. The included readme is valid no matter what. If not then one person could become very ill and unable to post. A couple of months later he returns only to see that his mod has been salvaged by others. It would destroy any community feeling for me.

[Lusted]

It would be accessible to everyone knowledgeable about modding, the main idea behind it is for mods to discuss problems about things they are not ready to show the public yet.

IP is a tricky thing, i do agree that the readme should include something like "if i am ill or absent for more than a few months, you may use my work but give credit for the work" because otherwise many fine skin packs may become unusable as the modders have disappeared. I understand your worries about people destroying your work though. As i use work by several inactive modders in my mod, i give them full credit in the readme, as i have tried to cntact them but have not had any reply.

[Myrddraal]

If the reason a separate hidden forum is wanted is that people want to be able to have research threads not being lost in newbie threads, then making a new forum seems an excellent idea.

But why oh why make it hidden?

If you don't want exceptionally inexperienced members posting irrelevant material in there (intentionally or not) then why not make it that junior members can't post there?

But again, why make it hidden.

Why hide information, whatever it is, from the greater modding community?

My 2 pence

[GiantMonkeyMan]

so then there won't be people saying 'where can i get this mod?' when anyone who has 2 peas for a brain knows that it is a research thread for modding/an update thread for a mod which hasn't come out yet... that is what bugs me with the newer members... but what i just wrote sounds quite harsh
basically a hidden/partially hidden sub-forum would be useful for experienced modders to confer without newer member coming up with ideas that may have already been tried but they haven't been around long enough to realise this

i like the ideas for sharing of material between mod teams; we of Zulu tw would probably saved a lot of time if we had gone to (or had the balls to got to ) the napoleonic tw team for anims/models... but there is a certain thing about making your own stuff instead of having to share things
if someone had the time to gather modding resources (like new skins/text files made by anyone) and then tried to get the creator's permission to put it in a modding resource thread (or whatever) but that would take a lot of time

[Lusted]

Mydraal, the whole point of the hidden forum is to help mods with problems with features they are not ready to make public yet. Any discoveries or new tutorials posted in the hidden forum would be made public, as it would be pointless to keep them hidden.