The Future... spin-off: Intellectual Property and resource sharing

**Kagemusha** · 04-09-2006, 19:01

I understand if you guys dont like my proposal.But my intention was not to create somekind of "elitist"modder forum.But to create a place where different mod teams could share their problems and ideas between the teams and also get to know eachother better.About the problems i believe the problems that would be the kind that would be specific on some part of the mod that the certain mods wouldnt like to show to whole community at that stage.Also i wouldnt have anykind of problem if some mod teams wouldnt want to participate on it.I dont believe it would result in holding back information,but spreading of information faster and also the modders could beta test the new things and theorys lot faster.But if Dol Guldur and me are the only ones that think that would create anything positive,then i guess thats the way it is.

EDIT:Lusted beat me to it mostly.

**Bwian** · 04-09-2006, 21:13

A private mods forum would be just about the worst idea imaginable. It's a perfect way to exclude ne talent unless it

a) joins a mod team
b) gets allowed access

I can see what you would want to achieve, but it would be a bad idea. Why can't these things be discussed in open forum, or via PM. Whether it's intentional or not, you would be creating an 'elite' for which you would have to 'qualify'. Just don't see how it would help anyone.

Also...when it comes to mods ahring ideas and helping each other... it seems to be happening anyway! We have a forum for asking questions, and people do get help there. Why mess?

As far as intellectual property goes, I have had some bad experiences with this elsewhere. I did some work on a mod for a sim ( I won't name it ) and included some strict instructions as to what could or could not be done with it with regard to putting it in 'packs' of work etc. I basically said DON'T! I also asked that it remain unchanged. Both requests were immediately ignored once I became inactive. I felt SOOOOO annoyed. It got stuck in a pack with a load of unbalanced part finished content, and got mucked about with despite a lot of effort on my part to get it realistic.

you can't assume that just because someone leaves the scene you immediately have a community 'right' to claim the work.

On the modders side, they have to conside this option, and should produce a 'readme' that states what use they would accept for their work. whether it could be included in someones mod or not... or whether they would allow someone to modify their work or change it in any way.

That way, the message is clear, and the modders wishes should be respected.

If, for example, I included a readme which said:

"This mod work cannot be used in any other mod or release, and must remain unchanged. If you wish to use this work in your mod, please contact the author"

I would expect the work to stay out of others mods unless I said otherwise. If I vanished from the scene, then that would be that.

If, however, I was less picky, I could say:

"Feel free to use the contents of this release in your mod. Please ensure full credit is given on any release and include this readme in the credits. IF you modify or change the work in any way, lpease ensure you give credit for the original work, and state what changes you made"

The matter of work submitted to a mod team should be made clear when someone joins a mod. They should be told clearly if they retain IP for the work they do, and if they leave the mod, whether the mod retains use of the work. Any mod leader should think about this up front when recruiting!

IP is a sensitive subject, and should remain flexible. The creator has the right to decide what the community can do with their efforts...it is only fair! In return, the author MUST make it clear what they consider to be fair use of their hard work. God forbid it ever happen...but nothing kills community spirit faster than somebody stealing another modders work, spending 5 minutes messing with the paintwork, and then calling it their own.

**Kagemusha** · 04-09-2006, 21:40

I see that this isnt getting any wind.Like i sayed this would be a platform for us to do the same that we are doing already with various messengers. I dont see how this would prevent information coming to here for example.Mostly in problem solving situations the many brains can solve a problem in many cases lot faster then only one.Who would be hurted by that? If this kind of platform would be in existence do you guys think that the results would be only kept in as some secret information by modding teams.I dont think so.How i see it,if the modding community is open like it claims to be the developer teams should collaborate more in the future and at the same time making everybodys job easier.But then also i may be wrong.Just an idea like i sayd before.Just an idea

**Epistolary Richard** · 04-09-2006, 21:48

I think having closer relationships between modding teams overall is very laudable - and I think there are obvious benefits when they do so. I'm interested in discussing all ideas that may encourage it. The concept of a hiden forum raises several questions which don't have obvious answers.

Originally Posted by Bwian

In return, the author MUST make it clear what they consider to be fair use of their hard work.

Perhaps a required field for files made available for download?

**Dol Guldur** · 04-09-2006, 22:13

I think modders must certainly accept that when they join a mod then they are bound by the terms. Of course, the Mod must make clear what those terms are. If someone joined my mod and we worked with him for a while and then he walked off with his creations I would take a dim view of it (and let all the community know he violated the terms and might do the same to you!).

Likewise, Mod Teams should not abuse members' IP - and credit should always be rightly given.

For those who release solo packs, tools etc. then yes a required field in the upload form would be great although there should be default terms for those who do not fill them out properly.

Regarding the building of bridges between modding teams...most Mod forums are made up of a private dev. forum and a public forum. Could there be a third forum (probably with just one thread) for all Mods that would be private and for the purpose of "inter-dev. team" communication? This would move away from a centralised and potentially "elitist" idea but be there for when needed - it would no doubt, as time passes and relations build, precipitate sharing of resources and strengthen the mods. I think it would be a powerful resource. All dev team members could have access to such a forum and have the opportunity to post in the counterpart forum in other mod forums. Maybe if the Guild started this off it might be an example to TWC etc.

**Duke John** · 04-10-2006, 06:11

All dev team members could have access to such a forum

Are only members of modding teams supposed to be knowledgeable on modding that only they are allowed? Both Bwian and I have worked on our own on modding projects. Would that mean that we (quite experienced modders) would not be allowed? If we were allowed on what grounds would you forbid a less experienced modder to enter the hidden forum?

I would much rather see questions and research being seperated into 2 subforums.

About IP, I agree with Bwian. The included readme is valid no matter what. If not then one person could become very ill and unable to post. A couple of months later he returns only to see that his mod has been salvaged by others. It would destroy any community feeling for me.

**Lusted** · 04-10-2006, 11:08

It would be accessible to everyone knowledgeable about modding, the main idea behind it is for mods to discuss problems about things they are not ready to show the public yet.

IP is a tricky thing, i do agree that the readme should include something like "if i am ill or absent for more than a few months, you may use my work but give credit for the work" because otherwise many fine skin packs may become unusable as the modders have disappeared. I understand your worries about people destroying your work though. As i use work by several inactive modders in my mod, i give them full credit in the readme, as i have tried to cntact them but have not had any reply.

**Myrddraal** · 04-13-2006, 22:27

If the reason a separate hidden forum is wanted is that people want to be able to have research threads not being lost in newbie threads, then making a new forum seems an excellent idea.

But why oh why make it hidden?

If you don't want exceptionally inexperienced members posting irrelevant material in there (intentionally or not) then why not make it that junior members can't post there?

But again, why make it hidden.

Why hide information, whatever it is, from the greater modding community?

My 2 pence

**Epistolary Richard** · 04-15-2006, 18:11

Originally Posted by Dol Guldur

For those who release solo packs, tools etc. then yes a required field in the upload form would be great although there should be default terms for those who do not fill them out properly.

Spun-off discussion about the licences modders can offer here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=63637

Regarding this concept of a hidden forum for members of hosted mod teams, this is what I read as being the arguments either way so far (do excuse me if I've misrepresented anyone)

Arguments for:
1) Increase sharing & co-operation between the hosted mod teams
2) Members of Hosted Mod teams can discuss problems and features with members of other Hosted Mod teams that they are not ready to show the public
3) Potential testing ground for tools or tutorials before being publicly released
4) Would not have new modders posting previously attempted ideas or asking tangential questions in there

Arguments against:
A) 'Brain drain' from regular modding forums as hosted team members spend more time on their hidden board
B) Questions over 'qualifications for entry'
C) Perception of it being elitist or that information was being hidden away
D) Shut-out talented modders who were not a member of a Hosted Mod team

I'd like to emphasise that I don't want this discussion to stall solely over a single issue. Do please suggest more ideas that would address this thread's overall theme of ways in which we can encourage knowledge and resource sharing within the community.

**Lentonius** · 04-15-2006, 18:55

Well, i think private forums are acceptable, but maybe a moderator such as ER, should have access and control over it.

Mod teams keep privacy for development, and the moderator can ensure that members are not thrown-out. This would also enable,in my opinion, that information that the moderator finds should be 'public' info, can be released to the community, while other aspects can stay private.

Also, the moderator can observe various aspects of a mod's development, and if he sees fit, enhance mod team co-operation. For example, if one mod needs something that another mod can help and vice-versa, productivity would increase due to this.

However, in an ideal world, i would propose a database full of all units by the community, that are 'freeware' to all private use... This way, once a mod is released, the units can be collected and placed here, along with any ui cards etc. Theoretically this wouldnt interfere with copyright as the units would be 'strictly private use'. I feel that all mod material should be freeware for private use...

**Epistolary Richard** · 04-15-2006, 19:09

Originally Posted by Lentonius

Well, i think private forums are acceptable, but maybe a moderator such as ER, should have access and control over it.

Mod teams keep privacy for development, and the moderator can ensure that members are not thrown-out. This would also enable,in my opinion, that information that the moderator finds should be 'public' info, can be released to the community, while other aspects can stay private.

We're talking about one single hidden form for all members of a hosted mod team - individual teams do already have hidden development forums if they so request.

Originally Posted by Lentonius

However, in an ideal world, i would propose a database full of all units by the community, that are 'freeware' to all private use... This way, once a mod is released, the units can be collected and placed here, along with any ui cards etc. Theoretically this wouldnt interfere with copyright as the units would be 'strictly private use'. I feel that all mod material should be freeware for private use...

All mod material posted for download is free for private use, if you didn't want something to be used privately for other people then you wouldn't put it up for download.