Tirpitz

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I stayed up till around 3 am watching a special about the Tirpitz. What a badass ship...

Discus.

[Csargo]

It seems to ring a bell but I just cant remember.

[spmetla]

Yeah it was a great ship. Too bad (or good for us) that it was never used. After the sinking of the Bismark Hitler required of the Kriegsmarine that his personal approval was required for the use of capital ships which he was too afraid to do. If it had been allowed to go after some of those convoys heading to the USSR it would have done some major damage, required a larger diversion of the Royal navy's capital ships to help escort convoys to the USSR and if it was successful as I imagine it would upon a large convoy in tight formation would have hampered the Soviets supplies along with hurt relations between the USSR and the Western Powers.

here's the best site I know of about them:
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/index.html

Great site with good information and lots of photography, theres also sister sites about the other German Capital ships.

[AggonyDuck]

Whoah! That's a nice amount of information.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

It seemed that Hitler was too scared to use this beast though at times. If the allies, knew the ship was on the way, he'd simply bring it back to the Noregan (sp?) port where it was staying.

[Watchman]

Heh. By what I've read of it the bugger somewhat perversely had its greatest impact simply by existing there in Norway, but did not directly manage to get about anything done. The Allies were scared to death of the bugger, full well knowing that if it managed to engage one of the Murmansk convoys they'd have very little to stop it with at hand before it sent the freighters to the bottom. One of its typically soon aborted sorties actually made one of the convoys disperse and duly get severely shredded by the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe bombers and subs.

It was like some sort of gravity singularity that made all the operations in the region revolve around itself, and the Allies expended considerable energy in trying to get rid of the pesky thing.

[screwtype]

Heh. By what I've read of it the bugger somewhat perversely had its greatest impact simply by existing there in Norway, but did not directly manage to get about anything done. The Allies were scared to death of the bugger, full well knowing that if it managed to engage one of the Murmansk convoys they'd have very little to stop it with at hand before it sent the freighters to the bottom. One of its typically soon aborted sorties actually made one of the convoys disperse and duly get severely shredded by the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe bombers and subs.

It was like some sort of gravity singularity that made all the operations in the region revolve around itself, and the Allies expended considerable energy in trying to get rid of the pesky thing.

Yes, Hitler didn't understand the concept of a "fleet in being" and thought his capital ships should be employed, like U-boats, to sink stuff.

What he didn't get is that the very existence of these capital ships tied down major RN naval assets that could otherwise have been more usefully employed elsewhere.

[Watchman]

Well, let's be honest here - the Kriegsmarine never ever actually had the ability to genuinely contest "blue waters" with the RN. The best their surface combatants managed in both WWs was "brown water" defense, ie. looking mean enough the Brits didn't venture into the Baltic. Even the odd WW2 big ships were really more superheavy raiders, and keeping in mind what happened to the Bismarck...

I've gotten the impression the German navy actually had a bit of a schizophrenia. I mean, they made all the same postulations of glory and military honour as everyone else, and in the end their main contribution to both big wars was sneakily sinking cargo ships with subs... Must have been a bit galling.

[Kraxis]

The Bismarck class was most certainly glorified raiders. Or better yet, super Hipper class ships.

Their secondary guns were also specifically position and constructed to sink merchants rather than protect them from destroyers and light cruisers (which the big guns were supposed to blast apart). Also add the many DP 105mm guns. They were all positioned to be able to fire at ships to the front and rear (as would happen in a convoy) rather than fire out the broadside where any attacker would come from.

Also Bismarck's armour was specifically made for close combat rather than the falsely assumed plunging fire (with which she sank Hood). Her deckarmour was only marginally better than Hood's on the deck. Also her torpedoarmour was just about the best in the world. Bob Ballard proved when he went back to her that not a single torpedo fired at her ever penetrated her armour (the impact-on-deck theory doesn't hold water as the topedoes were set to quite a few meters depth).
The fact that more care was put on vertical belt and topedoarmour indicates that she was meant to meet her enemies so close that she could sweep sailors from the other ship with the barrels of her guns.

A raider in extreme... Never a slugger like the Rodney and Nelson, or the KGV class.

[KrooK]

But superb cannons didn't save Bismarck.
Anti - destroyers guns didn't save it too.
During hunting on Bismarck polish destroyer "Piorun" was fighting with Bismarck for over an hour until help came. Piorun did not any damages but told everyone where is Bismarck.

Anyway staying in Norway wasn't bad option. Royal Navy was vey afraid of Tirpitz. I heard there was a conwoy who divided itself because they thought that Tirpitz is coming. And during arctic conwoys - divide meant death.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Actually, I think most of the surface units in the Kreigsmarine larger than a CL were a waste of tonnage and crew. Replace the expenditures on these units with an appropriate number of Type 7's and 9's and then see about hitting some convoys...

Of course, Kaiser Willy made the same gaffe before round 1, building a second-best navy and draining away the personnel and steel that could have put 3-4 corps (more?) into the line at Tannenberg and the Marne.

[AggonyDuck]

Actually from what I've read it wasn't even plunging fire from the Bismarck that sunk HMS Hood, but a 8.1 inch shell fired from Prinz Eugen that pierced the deck armour and hit the secondary magazine that caused a chain-reaction.

But what I find impressive about the Bismarck-class was their armour. Simply the amount of pounding that the Bismarck took before being scuttled is quite amazing really. But on the other hand what use is there off battleship that has no turrets or speed left, but just refuses to sink?

[Kraxis]

Actually from what I've read it wasn't even plunging fire from the Bismarck that sunk HMS Hood, but a 8.1 inch shell fired from Prinz Eugen that pierced the deck armour and hit the secondary magazine that caused a chain-reaction.

But what I find impressive about the Bismarck-class was their armour. Simply the amount of pounding that the Bismarck took before being scuttled is quite amazing really. But on the other hand what use is there off battleship that has no turrets or speed left, but just refuses to sink?

Pure tenacity! If you can't win, then at least you can get the satisfaction that you enemy can't sink you. Typical German.
"So you zink you can sink our ship? Try you weakling British pondsailors! I dare you!"

Anyway, it couldn't have been Hipper that did the damage. The simple fact is she hit Hood a handful of seconds prior to the destructive hit. Given that she was firing entire broadsides and not staggered volleys it can't have been her.
Her hit(s) caused a serious fire just ahead of the bridge where a large crate or stash of flares was held. This is clearly stated.
Besides, her fire didn't plunge enough to be able to punch through to the bottom of Hood. Her shells would at best explode at about sealevel.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Krax' your research is right on the money.

Part of the trouble is visualizing it. 24k yards is way long for most of us to get a grip on it. When you go through the geometry/gun firepower a bit, it is obvious that an 203 would be coming in at different angles than a 380 over the same distance -- and a review of Hood's deck armors suggest the near-impossibility of a 203 bopping though all of them at that range (though ironically a 1920 RN study of the Hood specified the exact danger which apparently killed her 20+ years later).

[yesdachi]

I saw the same show but I fell asleep on the floor about half way thru. Woke up 2 hours later with a leg cramp still curious as to what happened to the Tripitz. Thanks for the link spmetla

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I saw the same show but I fell asleep on the floor about half way thru. Woke up 2 hours later with a leg cramp still curious as to what happened to the Tripitz. Thanks for the link spmetla

I was laying on the floor too! That's my TV watching position of choice. Nice firm pillow underneath...yeah...

[edyzmedieval]

Tirpitz was one of my favourite war ships. It was extremely powerful.

Hitler had 3 big war ships, but they weren't properly used.

-Tirpitz
-Bismarck
-Gneisenau

[Kraxis]

Tirpitz was one of my favourite war ships. It was extremely powerful.

Hitler had 3 big war ships, but they weren't properly used.

-Tirpitz
-Bismarck
-Gneisenau

Then you must add Scharnhorst as well since it was the same ship as Gneisenau.

Those two ships were even more raiders than Bismarck and Tirpitz, and actually they worked pretty well until the British sent old battleships as part of the convoys.
They had comparable armour to the Bismarcks, superior speed but lesser main guns. Obviously they were meant to avoid deadly combat and be secure from lesser combat. The smaller guns would be just as good against escorts and merchants. Only they were not so great against battleships.

So if you want a good raider design then the Scharnhorst class would be a good candidate for the top spot.

[edyzmedieval]

Oh yeah, Scharnhorst also.

What other huge war ships did they have?

[Kraxis]

No more...

Graf Zeppelin could be counted among them but it never got off to a start.

[edyzmedieval]

What about the USSR?
Apart from stealing from us a submarine(they stole 1 of our 2 submarines we had)!!!

[Kraxis]

You mean Soviet battleships?

[AggonyDuck]

Well the USSR had mostly some WW1-era battleships left from the old russians during WW2. From what I gather they had three or four of them left during WW2.

[The Wizard]

And here I was, thinking this thread was about the German admiral himself, father of the Reichs-/Kriegsmarine...

Great thread nevertheless.

[KrooK]

USSR got very bad situation on Baltic sea. Up to 1944 they couldn't even use a submarine ships. But of course later they got some easy victories

[The Wizard]

Well, Soviet subs caused the worst civilian disasters at sea, with the death toll peaking around 20000 men, women and children...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The Scharnhorst and Gneisnau were, arguably, the best battle cruisers ever built. Though only armed with 280cm guns, they had excellent firepower, speed, and better protection than any ship of their cruising speed until the Iowa class. Had they been re-armed with twin 380cm turrets to replace the 280's (planned, but never got enough of the big tubes built) they would have been even more fearsome. They might even have been capable of the old BC goal of being able to outrun anything they couldn't kill.

[SwordsMaster]

I've gotten the impression the German navy actually had a bit of a schizophrenia. I mean, they made all the same postulations of glory and military honour as everyone else, and in the end their main contribution to both big wars was sneakily sinking cargo ships with subs... Must have been a bit galling.

Nope. Hitler had a bit of Schizophrenia.

USSR got very bad situation on Baltic sea. Up to 1944 they couldn't even use a submarine ships. But of course later they got some easy victories

I disagree. The russian Baltic fleet is what caused the nazi invasion of USSR in the first place.

[Kraxis]

I disagree. The russian Baltic fleet is what caused the nazi invasion of USSR in the first place.

Interesting opinon... Would you care to elaborate, as most historians would argue several other points before the Baltic Fleet.

[AggonyDuck]

Pure tenacity! If you can't win, then at least you can get the satisfaction that you enemy can't sink you. Typical German.
"So you zink you can sink our ship? Try you weakling British pondsailors! I dare you!"

Hehehe, thanks for the laughs.