Small African Civ!!!

[Dayve]

As long as the new faction doesn't have chariots AT ALL and isn't in the north east of the map where all the annoying ass horse archer armies lie, then i'll be happy with it.

[Urnamma]

Sigh. As we've said half a million times, there will be no african faction. Even the Nubians, the most advanced sub-saharan civilization of the time, was barely out of the bronze age in our period, and relied entirely on the Ptolemies for decent manufactured goods.

I know the modern world has an obsession with multi-culturalism, but the ancients didn't give a damn. To the Ptolemies, and to the native egyptians, Black Africans were a source of mercenaries, a sparse source (not even slaves, since slaves from the mediterranean were cheaper... no racism in the ancient world, just opportunism).

We're going to put a primitive unit or two down there. Don't expect African Supermen, because the first african people south of the sahara above the military horizen (those who do not fight in archaic and ritualistic forms) were the Zulu, and only after the brilliant Shaka. This excludes the Ethiopians of course, who were largely dominated by the Arabs until the collapse of the Sabaean stranglehold on the horn of Africa.

This is not Europa Political Correctum. I have seen not a single shred of evidence for the inclusion of a native black kingdom that would be meaningful in period. Ethiopia, about 600 years after the period, would be worthy of inclusion.

I'm not meaning to sound harsh to anyone in particular, but I'm just not entirely sure why this keeps coming up... The reputable historians and classicists all just ignored Black Athena as racially motivated tripe (as any Eurocentric crap is as well)

Personally, I like truth. It's pretty cool. The only thing I may be guilty of is overestimating the impact of the early semitic peoples, so no racism accusations, please, unless you want to accuse me of philo-semitism ;) In that case, I'd probably agree with you.

[paullus]

Interestingly, political correctness was not the first thought I had when reading the first post. I think we should all be wary of making racial generalizations, a la "all black people are big and strong." I know there's a tendency to do it today, and I know they did it back in the ancient world (every Gaul stands a foot above the average man, etc), but there's something to be said for distancing ourselves from ethnodeterminism. While genetic traits have ethnic links (supposedly many Gauls were indeed quite tall, but the Galatians became less so because of greater intermarriage with other peoples) and are interesting aspects of history, this is a sensitive subject and a dangerous one as well.

That said, I am pretty sure there are some more historical factions the EB team could add that would diversify the EB experience even more than a four unit bronze age african faction.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well I personnally don't think there is anything wrong with generalising or steriotyping, so long as you realise that they are generalisations and steriotypes.

Yes, Gauls were generally big, strong and emotional, but that doesn't mean they all were. Yes, Germans were huge, red or blond haired and truly terrifying in war but I'm sure somewhere there was a German who just wanted to stay home and compose epic verse.

As to Black Athena, there's a very funny bit in one of my Lecturer's book (Tim Whitmarsh, Introduction to Greek Literature) where he basically refuses to discuss it. That said the idea that the "Arian" theory was fuelled by racism may have some validity. Of course that doesn't make it wrong and it basically isn't.

[Chester]

Generalizations are only called out when some one takes an offense to it. It's not intrinscally bad, however.

I recall a funny bus ride back in my highschool days. A friend of mine was bragging about how well endowed he was, and that without a doubt he was larger than any of us, because apparently black males have large wangs.

This was a generalization, we laughed at him. All in all it went over well.

Then a person said "they can have their large dicks, because most of them are poor and uneducated". This did not go over so well. Infact it almost spurred a fight. A few females even chipped in and reminded us all, in case we didn't know, that many black men are educated and well off. The guy who made the comment was warned not to generalize and say racist things.

It's the intent of how you use the statement and the delivery etc...

People will only call out stereotypes if they take an offense to it. If it's flattering or neutral in nature, they'll either embrace or ignore it.

Saying there is something wrong with stereotypes is like saying... satire is bad... or something.

[tk-421]

I would strongly support the inclusion of an African faction, even a weak technologically inferior one that can't possibly beat Carthage or Egypt. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to be ultra politically correct and multicultural, I'm saying this because Africa is a big empty space and something needs to fill it to slow Carthaginian and Ptolemaic expansion. I understand that filling up a huge empty space on the map is not the best justification for putting another faction in Africa, but it is a valid one. There are lots of people who would probably enjoy playing a weak faction struggling to defend itself from Carthage or the Ptolemies. I also wouldn't mind seeing an Arab faction or another German faction.

I will support the EB team's decision about who to possibly replace the Yuezhi with no matter what it is (unless it's something goofy and CAish, which it won't be). After all, its not my mod. I'm just a fan who enjoys editing text, playing the occasionl custom battle, and trying desperately to make my campaigns work.

[Geoffrey S]

I would strongly support the inclusion of an African faction, even a weak technologically inferior one that can't possibly beat Carthage or Egypt. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to be ultra politically correct and multicultural, I'm saying this because Africa is a big empty space and something needs to fill it to slow Carthaginian and Ptolemaic expansion. I understand that filling up a huge empty space on the map is not the best justification for putting another faction in Africa, but it is a valid one. There are lots of people who would probably enjoy playing a weak faction struggling to defend itself from Carthage or the Ptolemies. I also wouldn't mind seeing an Arab faction or another German faction.

Africa was a big an empty space. Most that'd need representing could be done with rebels.

[the_handsome_viking]

Generalizations are only called out when some one takes an offense to it. It's not intrinscally bad, however.

I recall a funny bus ride back in my highschool days. A friend of mine was bragging about how well endowed he was, and that without a doubt he was larger than any of us, because apparently black males have large wangs.

This was a generalization, we laughed at him. All in all it went over well.

Then a person said "they can have their large dicks, because most of them are poor and uneducated". This did not go over so well. Infact it almost spurred a fight. A few females even chipped in and reminded us all, in case we didn't know, that many black men are educated and well off. The guy who made the comment was warned not to generalize and say racist things.

It's the intent of how you use the statement and the delivery etc...

People will only call out stereotypes if they take an offense to it. If it's flattering or neutral in nature, they'll either embrace or ignore it.

Saying there is something wrong with stereotypes is like saying... satire is bad... or something.

That was a depressing story.

[Lusted]

I think the main reason behind the want for an african civ is because it is quite empty down there, it looks like it needs filling up, but as there is no feasible faction to go there it is a bit pointless.

[the_handsome_viking]

Well I personnally don't think there is anything wrong with generalising or steriotyping, so long as you realise that they are generalisations and steriotypes.

Yes, Gauls were generally big, strong and emotional, but that doesn't mean they all were. Yes, Germans were huge, red or blond haired and truly terrifying in war but I'm sure somewhere there was a German who just wanted to stay home and compose epic verse.

As to Black Athena, there's a very funny bit in one of my Lecturer's book (Tim Whitmarsh, Introduction to Greek Literature) where he basically refuses to discuss it. That said the idea that the "Arian" theory was fuelled by racism may have some validity. Of course that doesn't make it wrong and it basically isn't.

People are generally happy with generalizations and stereotypes until they get offended by them.

But whether we like it or not, there usually is a lot of truth in them.

[the_handsome_viking]

Sigh. As we've said half a million times, there will be no african faction. Even the Nubians, the most advanced sub-saharan civilization of the time, was barely out of the bronze age in our period, and relied entirely on the Ptolemies for decent manufactured goods.

I know the modern world has an obsession with multi-culturalism, but the ancients didn't give a damn. To the Ptolemies, and to the native egyptians, Black Africans were a source of mercenaries, a sparse source (not even slaves, since slaves from the mediterranean were cheaper... no racism in the ancient world, just opportunism).

We're going to put a primitive unit or two down there. Don't expect African Supermen, because the first african people south of the sahara above the military horizen (those who do not fight in archaic and ritualistic forms) were the Zulu, and only after the brilliant Shaka. This excludes the Ethiopians of course, who were largely dominated by the Arabs until the collapse of the Sabaean stranglehold on the horn of Africa.

This is not Europa Political Correctum. I have seen not a single shred of evidence for the inclusion of a native black kingdom that would be meaningful in period. Ethiopia, about 600 years after the period, would be worthy of inclusion.

I'm not meaning to sound harsh to anyone in particular, but I'm just not entirely sure why this keeps coming up... The reputable historians and classicists all just ignored Black Athena as racially motivated tripe (as any Eurocentric crap is as well)

Personally, I like truth. It's pretty cool. The only thing I may be guilty of is overestimating the impact of the early semitic peoples, so no racism accusations, please, unless you want to accuse me of philo-semitism ;) In that case, I'd probably agree with you.

To be fair, I don't think the guy was trying to just come up with an excuse to have a group of funky Black men appear in the mod because there was too many White people in Europa Barbarorum, but that there is a pretty amount of territory in Africa and that it might be a quick way to give people a reason to explore it.

Really, the inclusion of such units couldn't be much different than the logic behind putting in those Indian archer units in the near South East Asian section of the map.

[Divinus Arma]

This is not Europa Political Correctum.

heh. You said rect... never mind.