Small African Civ!!!

[Geoffrey S]

I would strongly support the inclusion of an African faction, even a weak technologically inferior one that can't possibly beat Carthage or Egypt. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to be ultra politically correct and multicultural, I'm saying this because Africa is a big empty space and something needs to fill it to slow Carthaginian and Ptolemaic expansion. I understand that filling up a huge empty space on the map is not the best justification for putting another faction in Africa, but it is a valid one. There are lots of people who would probably enjoy playing a weak faction struggling to defend itself from Carthage or the Ptolemies. I also wouldn't mind seeing an Arab faction or another German faction.

Africa was a big an empty space. Most that'd need representing could be done with rebels.

[oudysseos]

First of all I am not particularly in favour of an African Faction, but that's only because I'd much rather see an Attalid Faction in Pergamon and a Syracusan Mini-Faction. However, that is purely personal preference.

I just wanted to point out that lack of credible written sources for the Sabaeans in the EB time frame does not mean that they weren't there. The fact that Graeco-Roman sources don't refer to the Axumite Kingdom until the first century AD merely underlines Graeco-Roman ignorance.
The Axumites certainly didn't spring out of the ground fully formed, but had obviously been developing during the EB time frame, either (as some scholars think) as the Da'amot Kingdom, or as the Sabaeans in Yemen who crossed over the Red Sea into Ethiopia, perhaps as early as the 3rd century BC. So from the point of view of historical relevance/importance/accuracy, the Sabaeans certainly deserve a spot in EB as much as German or 'Iberian' tribes, or a hypothetical 'Koinon Hellenon', for that matter.
Realistically of course that is probably not possible: first of all there is not enough information available about Axumite History in our time period to develop a Faction to the same level as the others already included, and, of course, there doesn't seem to be a member of the dev team interested in doing so, which is probably the overriding criterium anyway. I just wanted to point out that Africa was not then (as it is not now) 'empty'. It is the ethnocentric nature of our recorded history that is empty in that regard. In fact, during the Hellenistic time period the Axumite Kingdom was likely developing in Ethiopia, along with the Himyar, Saba and Ma'in city-states of Arabia Felix. The area was almost certainly much more advanced than the Casse or the Sweboz at the same time. I know that we won't end up with an African Faction (Urnama has spoken), but that doesn't mean that such a faction would be innapropriate for EB.

Still, it might be possible to acknowledge the Axums in some way: perhaps settlements around Yemen/The Horn of Africa could get Trade Caravans? Maybe they already do; my Ptolemies haven't got that far yet.

Remember, Alexander the Great (before EB!) was reportedly considering an invasion of Arabia Felix (i.e. the probably homeland of the Sabaeans) before he kicked, and Augustus actually sent an expedition in 24 BC, which is still in the EB time frame. Neither of these men would have wanted to do so had the area been empty. (I know I'm talking about the extremity of the Arabian Peninsula, but that area was very much linked with the Horn of Africa so I think that the same argument applies).

[QwertyMIDX]

The Sabeans were in Ethiopia long before the 3rd century BC, in fact by the 3rd century they lost a good deal of thier direct control if not their influence. Axum was a significantly later devlopment though, by the time Axum rose to promiance the Himyarites were the dominat force in South Arabia.

[TRC]

I've actually just completed a university course on Ethiopian history (if you believe my professor, the only one of its kind in North America, though I suspect he may just be blowing hot air) and I have read way more about the area than I ever even thought was written over the past few months. I would be willing to say that a Sabean faction, or even an Axumite one (built to be weak at the opening of the scenario, but capable of growth, as the Axumite kingdom did not become really important until a century or two after the game's start date) would not be out of place.

The problem is, while there is ample information available on either of these two civilizations, as far as I can tell, there isn't anywhere near enough known about the Sabean or Axumite military to make either a viable faction in a wargame such as this.

That is a shame, as I would love to see another African faction, particularily the Axumite kingdom, both for game balance and because of my newfound interest the history of that area.

Oh well, if somebody can prove me wrong about the lack of military information (I would love you if you did!), I have access to plenty of sources for Axumite, and to a lesser degree Sabean, civilization at my disposal, and can contact a pretty respectable scholar to fill in any gaps. I would be willing to do work for the project if enough information is available and anybody shows some interest.

Anyway, I'm new to these boards, but I'm loving the mod so far. Keep up the good work EB team, I can't wait to get my hands on a finished build.

[QwertyMIDX]

The information on the Sabean military is scanty, but there are a few reliefs and a large number of inscriptions that make it feasible, along with the fact that warfare in the Arabian penisula didn't really change too much between 600 BC and 600 AD.

[nikolai1962]

Umm, Numidia :)

Though personally I think this discussion is a side-effect of extending the map south to cover historically important areas further east and thereby creating a big empty vaccuum. But saharan africa is and was a big empty vaccuum and all you do by adding factions in that region in the game is distract major factions into fighting over sand instead of over the riches of the med.

Should be one vast desert region imo with its settlement in the bottom left corner, too far for the AI to consider attacking. Just a shame you couldn't have an irregular map and just cover the whole area with a nice picture of some sand dunes and a camel.

[cunctator]

Unfortunately there can be a maximal distance of, I believe, 50 tiles between settlements of neighboured provinces or there will be a very negative sideffect, I think a serious AI slowdown. So it isn't really possible to have just one huge desert province with a bottom left corner of the map.

[tk-421]

Umm, Numidia :)

Though personally I think this discussion is a side-effect of extending the map south to cover historically important areas further east and thereby creating a big empty vaccuum. But saharan africa is and was a big empty vaccuum and all you do by adding factions in that region in the game is distract major factions into fighting over sand instead of over the riches of the med.

I understand your point about the Sahara being big and empty. That doesn't mean that factions won't fight over it. Back when I was still able to play campaigns that is all the Ptolemaoi and Carthaginians did. The presence of weak rebels distracts Carthage and Egypt from "the riches of the med" and encourages them to 'fight over sand". An additional African faction may distract a human player, but it would do more to discourage the rapid conquest of the worthless desert territories by Karthadastim and the Ptolemies.

This problem is also present in Arabia and the large empty space between the Getai, Sarmatians, and Sweboz. Although an African faction would be very good (and if there was no faction limit necessary), I would rather see and Arab or German faction replace the Yuezhi.

Edit: Does 1.5 make romans_senate usable? If so, maybe there could be a Yuezhi-replacing faction plus a new one eventually...

[Baldwin of Jerusalem]

Umm, Numidia :)

Though personally I think this discussion is a side-effect of extending the map south to cover historically important areas further east and thereby creating a big empty vaccuum. But saharan africa is and was a big empty vaccuum and all you do by adding factions in that region in the game is distract major factions into fighting over sand instead of over the riches of the med.

Should be one vast desert region imo with its settlement in the bottom left corner, too far for the AI to consider attacking. Just a shame you couldn't have an irregular map and just cover the whole area with a nice picture of some sand dunes and a camel.

This has to be the shrewdest observation Ive heard on this thread so far. I totally agree. As it stands, the character of Carthiginian expansion is totally warped. They have no need to expand into spain as they did historically, they just grab colossal chunks of desert and when playing as Rome its gonna take half the game to chase them around in order to finally eradicate them.

What on Earth is wrong with re including Numidia? If this was ported to 1.6 by the way, then their would be no Senate slot, so we'd have 20 factions. As it is, its only going to 1.5, so the Senate one will be lost.

I also agree that Saharan Africa should be one big province with a ring of rocks around its capital to make it unconquerable, which does in fact serve to apply an irregular border to the map. Its also been tried before and the AI knows instinctively that the area is unconquerable and goes elsewhere. One modder even extended just a tiny portion of the unconquerable area to form a little wedge between Carthage and the Ptolemies so that they didnt realise they were neighbours and there were no more inexplicable attacks between the two. I would say the Same of the bulk of the interior of Arabia which never figures as part of any empire on maps of this period. Even Alexander and the Romans never managed that one, so I dont think we should be able to casually send a small unit down there and conquer it after a brief siege.

[Reverend Joe]

Should be one vast desert region imo with its settlement in the bottom left corner, too far for the AI to consider attacking. Just a shame you couldn't have an irregular map and just cover the whole area with a nice picture of some sand dunes and a camel.

heh. You said rect... never mind.

Divinus, you are very immature. You should be ashamed of yourself.







Heh heh... rectum.