Poles, Jews, Auschwitz, WWII

[KrooK]

Some weeks ago polish government ask UNESCO, if they could change name of KL Auschwitz on German Nazist KL Auschwitz. Unesco disagreed.
Government did it because we have enough of hearing about "polish camps".

But very interesting is how did Jews comment that fact.
One of leaders of World Jews Congress told something like that;
"Poles cannot divide Auschwitz from polish history, especially after things they did". I wonder what are these things. Did we establish Auschwitz????
Did decided to build it there???? Did we murdered Jews????

I think it's nothing more than Jewish blindness about history. They are describing everyone exept USA as enemies of Jews, because they want achieve political targets. Jews can't stand that nazist managed to kill so many jews without fight - this is visible especially from American Jews.

Do you know why these camps (Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec) were in Poland?
Because in Poland lived most Jews into Europe. They moved here in XIV centrury and have never been massacred like in rest of Europe.

Not many people know what american jews though about ghettos and holocaust before pearl harbour.
They did nothing to help other Jews. When nazist closed European Jews into ghettos, Americans Jews were...... happy. Yes H_A_P_P_Y "because for the first time Jews go their self -government.
Furthermore even when polish resistance reported about holocaust, American Jews called it "polish propaganda".

During war no one did more for Jews than Poles. This is out of discussion.
After war polish Jews established country Israel. Not many pps know who was first high commander of Israeli army. It was deserter from polish army. He ran in 1942-1943 but Poles didn't pursue him despite he should be capital punished.

Now Jews accuse us of holocaust. I wonder what they did to stop it. WHat that asshole from Jewish Congress did to save Jews. During war Poles did nothing they couldn't be pround of, which i can't tell about American Jews or Frenchmen.

[Tribesman]

Yeah its outrageous that all these Jewish people are condemning the name change
http://www1.totallyjewish.com/news/TJ_leader/
Oh sorry , silly me , wrong link , they are understanding the name change

[rory_20_uk]

Sod the Jews - no one has the right to torture a poor defenceless language like that in public!

[_Martyr_]

I find it unbelievable that ANYONE would not know that the holocaust was a nazi crime, not a Polish one.

[Bohdan, Lord of Courland]

I find it unbelievable that ANYONE would not know that the holocaust was a nazi crime, not a Polish one.

The issue here is not about who commited the crime (as there is nothing more obvious than that), but the fact that many people view the Poles as "collaborators" who "helped the nazis" in their persecution and murder of Jews, which is rather sad and ignorant on their part. Even though there were a few exceptions (most notable is the "incident" at the village of "Jedwabne"), many Poles tried to aid their Jewish neighbours. Infact, Poland was the ONLY occupied territory in which the official punishment for housing/aiding a Jew was immediate death at the hands of a firing squad.
And to think that there is so much anti-semitism rooted in Poland today. How ironic

[scooter_the_shooter]

this thread might get pretty heated...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Gah, Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau, Former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia. Former this, former that.
Eastern Europe should get a life. Wait, you've got one. It's part of Europe now, first world. Unpartitioned, unoccopied.

Is it not time to stop this perenial outrage over your history and the percieved misconceptions the rest of the world might have about it? To put an end to anti-semitism, anger at western democracies, the Germans, the French, the English and Americans?

Poland has a long history, there is a lot to be proud of, there is a lot to be ashamed of. Just like the rest of world, eh?

Time to look forward.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sod the Jews - no one has the right to torture a poor defenceless language like that in public!

That is just hilarious.

[lars573]

Krook your going up against the US education system that tends to generalize almost everything. To the average person all of occupied europe acted like Vichy France. That the Germans set up a puppet government that rounded up all the Jews for them for extermination. They would be very surprised to learn that Poland was annexed near totally by the Nazi's and run by Nazi's, and the native Poles treated like scum. Even more surprising for them to learn is that the Poles had compartively very few collaberators, and that they tried to save all their citizens from Nazi predation regardless of religion.

[Papewaio]

The Poles would like the name changed to the Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau,

I thought when something had 'Former' was used in instances when it is still in use.

Artiste formely known as Symbol formerly known as Prince.

If is Formerly blah, what is its current name?

Also it was formerly named Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau... so won't if have to change its name to Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau and then to a third name to even have a chance of being called the Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I'm not really a fan of changing name plates and not the fundamentals behind an issue. It comes under the same idealogies of middle management that changing someones job title and folder colour will increase productivity, or the idea that shuffling chairs on the Titanic while it was sinking makes a difference.

Instead of worrying about the cosmetic name change, why not actually inform people to the realities of the situation?

[Kanamori]

Krook your going up against the US education system that tends to generalize almost everything. To the average person all of occupied europe acted like Vichy France. That the Germans set up a puppet government that rounded up all the Jews for them for extermination. They would be very surprised to learn that Poland was annexed near totally by the Nazi's and run by Nazi's, and the native Poles treated like scum. Even more surprising for them to learn is that the Poles had compartively very few collaberators, and that they tried to save all their citizens from Nazi predation regardless of religion.

Actually, we were taught that the Poles were treated nearly as badly as the Jews and other 'undesirables'. If one wasn't taught in a specific country, I would suggest that they should not comment on the learning experiences of those who were taught in that country.

[Don Corleone]

Krook your going up against the US education system that tends to generalize almost everything. To the average person all of occupied europe acted like Vichy France. That the Germans set up a puppet government that rounded up all the Jews for them for extermination. They would be very surprised to learn that Poland was annexed near totally by the Nazi's and run by Nazi's, and the native Poles treated like scum. Even more surprising for them to learn is that the Poles had compartively very few collaberators, and that they tried to save all their citizens from Nazi predation regardless of religion.

Somehow, I knew sooner or later, those filthy pigs, the true culprits, the US of A would be to blame.

You know Lars, for somebody who 'knows' so much about what we think, you ought to skip your "We hate the land to the South that shall not be named" one weekend and come down here and actually learn a thing or two.

Any American kid that actually paid attention in history class (and there weren't many) would be shocked to learn that gypsies were the 2nd largest victim group in the holocaust, as we were taught it was the Poles. But yeah, it's all our fault people in Israel and Europe view Poland negatively.

[Kraxis]

Any American kid that actually paid attention in history class (and there weren't many) would be shocked to learn that gypsies were the 2nd largest victim group in the holocaust, as we were taught it was the Poles. But yeah, it's all our fault people in Israel and Europe view Poland negatively.

Technically that is a correct interpretation, but a wrongful context.
If we say Jews, then we say Gypsies, homosexuals and so on. If we say Russians, then we say Poles, Ukranians ect.
So in the ethnic/personal group the Gypsies are indeed second, and many Jews and Gypsies were indeed Poles (see the two groups overlap).
In the national group the Russians comes first, then the Poles and Ukranians, but many of these were Jews as well. so you can't say that number one was Jews, then Poles. They are part of different connections. And if we lumped it all together then it would be Russians, Jews, Poles and Ukranians, but that would lead to faulty opinions on the killed.

*sigh*
It is not even easy dealing with death when it is statistics.

[lars573]

Actually, we were taught that the Poles were treated nearly as badly as the Jews and other 'undesirables'. If one wasn't taught in a specific country, I would suggest that they should not comment on the learning experiences of those who were taught in that country.

Somehow, I knew sooner or later, those filthy pigs, the true culprits, the US of A would be to blame.

You know Lars, for somebody who 'knows' so much about what we think, you ought to skip your "We hate the land to the South that shall not be named" one weekend and come down here and actually learn a thing or two.

Any American kid that actually paid attention in history class (and there weren't many) would be shocked to learn that gypsies were the 2nd largest victim group in the holocaust, as we were taught it was the Poles. But yeah, it's all our fault people in Israel and Europe view Poland negatively.

I knew this might happen. I know full well what the US education system is like. My grandfather was brought up in Boston. He graduated high school there, then he came home and had to retake some courses as the ones earned in the US weren't worth the paper they were prnted on so to speak.

Hate is the wrong word, pity, agrevation, superiority, closed mindedness. Those are words I'd use to describe my attitude to the USA.

Also paying attention in history is the key. Do a poll and find out how many kids think that the civil war and the civil rights movement happened oncurrently.

And being that I obsorb as much of your mass media as I do I'll always feel perfectly within my rights to comment on anything that I percieve a wrong with your society or government or people. Bitch all you want, I spoken and will not change my mind.

P.S. I'm moderate too, you should hear my mom go on about ignorant americans.

[Kanamori]

It is only a reflection of one's own ignorance to think they can label an entire populace.

[Ser Clegane]

It would be fantastic if this thread could stay on topic - if anybody has the urge to discuss the US education system, please feel free to open a new thread dedicated to that topic.

[Kanamori]

At any rate, I acknowledge that accounts such as these are far more accurate than any saying the Poles in general were responsible for the atrocities.

February 18, 1940
"I met a woman, an official of the Zamoyski estate. She had just arrived from Chelmo. For some time I've been receiving alarming information about the execution of the mentally ill patients of the psychiatric ward at Chelmo Hospital. I asked her if this happened. She verified that it was true.

"All the mentally ill were shot with machine guns, but under penalty of death the hospital personnel are forbidden to talk about this crime.

"It is so hard to believe anything as terrible as this."

March 2, 1943
"I was told about an occurrence in Jozefow. A young man, Konrad Bartozewski, and officer of the Home Army known as 'Wir,' was arrested along with another officer, Hieronim Miac ('Kosarz'). Young Bartozewski, the son of a veterinary doctor, was put in jail. But after a few hours people from the forest came and liberated both of them. After this happened a detachment of German gendarmes came to Jozefow and arrested the entire Bartozewski family. The Germans assembled them near city hall, then in full view of thousands of people, the old veterinarian, his wife, and daughter were executed. Sixty more people were jailed.

"I was told by Mayor Kraus that during his visit to Bilgoraj he learned about a partisan raid in Huta Krzeszowska, where four policemen were killed and one was wounded in the head.

"In Szczebrzeszyn it was announced by the Germans that all traffic on the highway to Zwierzyniec will stop for three days because of military exercises in the nearby forest. People are now fearing new arrests and deportations to Germany."

March 20, 1943
"On Monday, March 15, during the late evening, between 7 P.M. and 8 P.M., a raid at Rapy took place. The lumber mill and railroad station were burned down. The car of Treubander Becker was shot at. In Rozaniec the new owner of a large farm, a German, was killed. The military barracks were burned down. In retaliation the Germans set the entire village of Rozaniec on fire. More than 800 people were arrested and taken to the barracks in Zwierzyniec, mostly women and children. There is talk of the possibility of freeing those jailed by armed action. We are sure the Germans will begin evacuation action against other villages very soon." Linky.

[Dutch_guy]

Chelmo Hospital.

Never thought I'd read those two words in the same sentance...

[Husar]

I'm not really a fan of changing name plates and not the fundamentals behind an issue. It comes under the same idealogies of middle management that changing someones job title and folder colour will increase productivity, or the idea that shuffling chairs on the Titanic while it was sinking makes a difference.

Instead of worrying about the cosmetic name change, why not actually inform people to the realities of the situation?

Wise words.

[PanzerJaeger]

Not many people know what american jews though about ghettos and holocaust before pearl harbour.
They did nothing to help other Jews.

Idiotic.

What were they supposed to do? The strongest powers in Europe were worthless against German military superiority.

However, hundreds of thousands of Jews joined the American, British and Canadian armies to fight against the Nazis, and millions of them bought hundreds of millions of dollars worth of war bonds. What more could you ask of them?

I doubt a special Jewish army would have stood any more chance against the Nazis than the British, Polish, and French armies combined did.

[Moros]

THis is just *****! I mean damn I know that there people as stupid never to be heared off Hitler. But that they are even so dumb and ignorant to say in the media their opinion, condemn a whole nation and everything while they don't know a **** about it. If there were people except for the jews ( and gays,....) it were the Poles. They were treated as building materials, slaves together with russian prisonners, wich would serve the Germans (The habitants of south Tirol who would get Lebensraum).
Sorry but this guy should really be a shamed of himself for the rest of his life.

Why is it always so that it is the opinion of the most ignorant always are the ones who get most attention? tsss...Humans

[yesdachi]

Were Polish jokes started by Jews?

[lars573]

It is only a reflection of one's own ignorance to think they can label an entire populace.

The irony of this statement is staggering.

[KrooK]

I want just add
when I heard peoples telling about polish camps or
polish community helping germans I'm really angry.

[Goofball]

I want just add
when I heard peoples telling about polish camps or
polish community helping germans I'm really angry.

Hopefully you mean you are angry at the Poles who did assist the Germans in their Final Solution.

I understand your wish to point out that there were honorable Poles who tried to help their Jewish neighbors and protect them from the Nazis.

You are right, there were.

But there were honorable people who tried to protect Jews in almost all of the countries controlled by the Nazis, including Germany itself.

And your posts overlook one very important detail:

Just as there were in other countries, there were also many Poles who were quite willing to jump on the Nazi bandwagon and help out with their lovely little genocidal program.

So your outrage in this instance is, IMHO, a little bit misplaced.

[JimBob]

If my memory is true the Gypsies suffered, proportionally, as bad or worse than any other group.
Beside that point I think Goof summed it up. There were Poles who collaborated, there were Poles who fought back valiantly. The men and women of Warsaw will always be a tribute to all that is good in the world.



One more thing.

I knew this might happen. I know full well what the US education system is like. My grandfather was brought up in Boston. He graduated high school there, then he came home and had to retake some courses as the ones earned in the US weren't worth the paper they were prnted on so to speak.

Hate is the wrong word, pity, agrevation, superiority, closed mindedness. Those are words I'd use to describe my attitude to the USA.

Also paying attention in history is the key. Do a poll and find out how many kids think that the civil war and the civil rights movement happened oncurrently.

And being that I obsorb as much of your mass media as I do I'll always feel perfectly within my rights to comment on anything that I percieve a wrong with your society or government or people. Bitch all you want, I spoken and will not change my mind.

P.S. I'm moderate too, you should hear my mom go on about ignorant americans.

forgive the shot, it was too juicy.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Good spotting, JimBob.

Of course, in 50 years, precise qualification may matter...

[Kraxis]

Hopefully you mean you are angry at the Poles who did assist the Germans in their Final Solution.

I understand your wish to point out that there were honorable Poles who tried to help their Jewish neighbors and protect them from the Nazis.

You are right, there were.

But there were honorable people who tried to protect Jews in almost all of the countries controlled by the Nazis, including Germany itself.

And your posts overlook one very important detail:

Just as there were in other countries, there were also many Poles who were quite willing to jump on the Nazi bandwagon and help out with their lovely little genocidal program.

So your outrage in this instance is, IMHO, a little bit misplaced.

Goof you are correct, but it is especially hurtful for the Poles when they were in general treated worse than other occupied peoples (on par with the Russians and Ukranians), had a higher percentage of 'helpers' and a smaller percentage of collaborators.
So is it not particularly wrong when they are picked out as being the Nazi little brother? While the rest of us go free?

[Goofball]

Goof you are correct, but it is especially hurtful for the Poles when they were in general treated worse than other occupied peoples (on par with the Russians and Ukranians), had a higher percentage of 'helpers' and a smaller percentage of collaborators.
So is it not particularly wrong when they are picked out as being the Nazi little brother? While the rest of us go free?

I'm not so sure about those claims. I am a fairly educated person, and my impression is that the Poles were one of the more enthusiastic nations when it came to anti-semitism. The Dutch and the Danes, on the other hand, stick out in my mind for having defied the German doctrine of murder based on race.

Having said that, I acknowledge that my opinions as stated are based on anecdote and a vague memory of what I have read on the subject. If you can provide any kind of data that supports the idea that the Poles actually had lower numbers of collaborators in relation to other occupied nations, then I would be willing to re-examine my views. But my gut feeling from all I know now is that the Poles were actually one of the worse nations when it came to the citizenry supporting the nazi policy of Jewish extermination.

[Redleg]

I am still attempting to figure out how the American Education system gets mentioned in a thread about Poland wanting to change the name of a concentration camp.

I knew this might happen. I know full well what the US education system is like. My grandfather was brought up in Boston. He graduated high school there, then he came home and had to retake some courses as the ones earned in the US weren't worth the paper they were prnted on so to speak.

Actually you don't. What you have is second hand information from a relative. Typical hearsay evidence, it seems maybe your grandfather really didn't graduate from a high school in Boston, since upon graduation there would be no requirement to retake classes in Canada to acheive his high school graduation.

Now if he went to a Canadian College he might have had to take some additional classes that the Canadian Education system deemed necessary to ensure that American students had the equivelent learning experiences as Canadian Students.

You would be surprised how often this is done in almost every Education System when students transfer from one nation to the next.

Maybe you should learn how to probably spell and write proper sentences with the correct grammer before blasting away at the American Education system. Or as suggest learn before attempting to make blanket generalized statements that only make you look as foolish as the Polish for wanting to change the names of the concentration camps. (Well its a weak tie in to the subject, but one nevertheless.)