Poles, Jews, Auschwitz, WWII

[Kanamori]

It is only a reflection of one's own ignorance to think they can label an entire populace.

[Ser Clegane]

It would be fantastic if this thread could stay on topic - if anybody has the urge to discuss the US education system, please feel free to open a new thread dedicated to that topic.

[Kanamori]

At any rate, I acknowledge that accounts such as these are far more accurate than any saying the Poles in general were responsible for the atrocities.

February 18, 1940
"I met a woman, an official of the Zamoyski estate. She had just arrived from Chelmo. For some time I've been receiving alarming information about the execution of the mentally ill patients of the psychiatric ward at Chelmo Hospital. I asked her if this happened. She verified that it was true.

"All the mentally ill were shot with machine guns, but under penalty of death the hospital personnel are forbidden to talk about this crime.

"It is so hard to believe anything as terrible as this."

March 2, 1943
"I was told about an occurrence in Jozefow. A young man, Konrad Bartozewski, and officer of the Home Army known as 'Wir,' was arrested along with another officer, Hieronim Miac ('Kosarz'). Young Bartozewski, the son of a veterinary doctor, was put in jail. But after a few hours people from the forest came and liberated both of them. After this happened a detachment of German gendarmes came to Jozefow and arrested the entire Bartozewski family. The Germans assembled them near city hall, then in full view of thousands of people, the old veterinarian, his wife, and daughter were executed. Sixty more people were jailed.

"I was told by Mayor Kraus that during his visit to Bilgoraj he learned about a partisan raid in Huta Krzeszowska, where four policemen were killed and one was wounded in the head.

"In Szczebrzeszyn it was announced by the Germans that all traffic on the highway to Zwierzyniec will stop for three days because of military exercises in the nearby forest. People are now fearing new arrests and deportations to Germany."

March 20, 1943
"On Monday, March 15, during the late evening, between 7 P.M. and 8 P.M., a raid at Rapy took place. The lumber mill and railroad station were burned down. The car of Treubander Becker was shot at. In Rozaniec the new owner of a large farm, a German, was killed. The military barracks were burned down. In retaliation the Germans set the entire village of Rozaniec on fire. More than 800 people were arrested and taken to the barracks in Zwierzyniec, mostly women and children. There is talk of the possibility of freeing those jailed by armed action. We are sure the Germans will begin evacuation action against other villages very soon." Linky.

[Dutch_guy]

Chelmo Hospital.

Never thought I'd read those two words in the same sentance...

[Ser Clegane]

It would be fantastic if this thread could stay on topic - if anybody has the urge to discuss the US education system, please feel free to open a new thread dedicated to that topic.

I'd like to quote myself for anybody who has problems with reading.

Any more attempts to pull this off-topic and/or turn this into a country bashing thread will be more than frowned upon.

[Redleg]

nevermind

[lars573]

It is only a reflection of one's own ignorance to think they can label an entire populace.

The irony of this statement is staggering.

[KrooK]

I want just add
when I heard peoples telling about polish camps or
polish community helping germans I'm really angry.

[Goofball]

I want just add
when I heard peoples telling about polish camps or
polish community helping germans I'm really angry.

Hopefully you mean you are angry at the Poles who did assist the Germans in their Final Solution.

I understand your wish to point out that there were honorable Poles who tried to help their Jewish neighbors and protect them from the Nazis.

You are right, there were.

But there were honorable people who tried to protect Jews in almost all of the countries controlled by the Nazis, including Germany itself.

And your posts overlook one very important detail:

Just as there were in other countries, there were also many Poles who were quite willing to jump on the Nazi bandwagon and help out with their lovely little genocidal program.

So your outrage in this instance is, IMHO, a little bit misplaced.

[JimBob]

If my memory is true the Gypsies suffered, proportionally, as bad or worse than any other group.
Beside that point I think Goof summed it up. There were Poles who collaborated, there were Poles who fought back valiantly. The men and women of Warsaw will always be a tribute to all that is good in the world.



One more thing.

I knew this might happen. I know full well what the US education system is like. My grandfather was brought up in Boston. He graduated high school there, then he came home and had to retake some courses as the ones earned in the US weren't worth the paper they were prnted on so to speak.

Hate is the wrong word, pity, agrevation, superiority, closed mindedness. Those are words I'd use to describe my attitude to the USA.

Also paying attention in history is the key. Do a poll and find out how many kids think that the civil war and the civil rights movement happened oncurrently.

And being that I obsorb as much of your mass media as I do I'll always feel perfectly within my rights to comment on anything that I percieve a wrong with your society or government or people. Bitch all you want, I spoken and will not change my mind.

P.S. I'm moderate too, you should hear my mom go on about ignorant americans.

forgive the shot, it was too juicy.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Good spotting, JimBob.

Of course, in 50 years, precise qualification may matter...

[Kraxis]

Hopefully you mean you are angry at the Poles who did assist the Germans in their Final Solution.

I understand your wish to point out that there were honorable Poles who tried to help their Jewish neighbors and protect them from the Nazis.

You are right, there were.

But there were honorable people who tried to protect Jews in almost all of the countries controlled by the Nazis, including Germany itself.

And your posts overlook one very important detail:

Just as there were in other countries, there were also many Poles who were quite willing to jump on the Nazi bandwagon and help out with their lovely little genocidal program.

So your outrage in this instance is, IMHO, a little bit misplaced.

Goof you are correct, but it is especially hurtful for the Poles when they were in general treated worse than other occupied peoples (on par with the Russians and Ukranians), had a higher percentage of 'helpers' and a smaller percentage of collaborators.
So is it not particularly wrong when they are picked out as being the Nazi little brother? While the rest of us go free?

[Goofball]

Goof you are correct, but it is especially hurtful for the Poles when they were in general treated worse than other occupied peoples (on par with the Russians and Ukranians), had a higher percentage of 'helpers' and a smaller percentage of collaborators.
So is it not particularly wrong when they are picked out as being the Nazi little brother? While the rest of us go free?

I'm not so sure about those claims. I am a fairly educated person, and my impression is that the Poles were one of the more enthusiastic nations when it came to anti-semitism. The Dutch and the Danes, on the other hand, stick out in my mind for having defied the German doctrine of murder based on race.

Having said that, I acknowledge that my opinions as stated are based on anecdote and a vague memory of what I have read on the subject. If you can provide any kind of data that supports the idea that the Poles actually had lower numbers of collaborators in relation to other occupied nations, then I would be willing to re-examine my views. But my gut feeling from all I know now is that the Poles were actually one of the worse nations when it came to the citizenry supporting the nazi policy of Jewish extermination.

[Redleg]

I am still attempting to figure out how the American Education system gets mentioned in a thread about Poland wanting to change the name of a concentration camp.

I knew this might happen. I know full well what the US education system is like. My grandfather was brought up in Boston. He graduated high school there, then he came home and had to retake some courses as the ones earned in the US weren't worth the paper they were prnted on so to speak.

Actually you don't. What you have is second hand information from a relative. Typical hearsay evidence, it seems maybe your grandfather really didn't graduate from a high school in Boston, since upon graduation there would be no requirement to retake classes in Canada to acheive his high school graduation.

Now if he went to a Canadian College he might have had to take some additional classes that the Canadian Education system deemed necessary to ensure that American students had the equivelent learning experiences as Canadian Students.

You would be surprised how often this is done in almost every Education System when students transfer from one nation to the next.

Maybe you should learn how to probably spell and write proper sentences with the correct grammer before blasting away at the American Education system. Or as suggest learn before attempting to make blanket generalized statements that only make you look as foolish as the Polish for wanting to change the names of the concentration camps. (Well its a weak tie in to the subject, but one nevertheless.)

[Kralizec]

I'm not so sure about those claims. I am a fairly educated person, and my impression is that the Poles were one of the more enthusiastic nations when it came to anti-semitism. The Dutch and the Danes, on the other hand, stick out in my mind for having defied the German doctrine of murder based on race.

I'm not sure about the Danes, but your thoughts about us Dutch are off by a significant margin.
Over 100,000 Dutch jews were deported to concentration camps and killed. Percentage wise, more jews were killed from the Netherlands then any other occupied country except Poland.
There was a resistance movement of course, like in any occupied country, but it made little impression on the Nazis. The only real act of disobedience that sticks out is the February Strike, but that was only a sporadic outburst of general dissatisfaction with the occupying force, not so much an outcry against how jews were treated, if at all.

[Husar]

German doctrine of murder based on race.