Poles, Jews, Auschwitz, WWII

[Kralizec]

I'm not so sure about those claims. I am a fairly educated person, and my impression is that the Poles were one of the more enthusiastic nations when it came to anti-semitism. The Dutch and the Danes, on the other hand, stick out in my mind for having defied the German doctrine of murder based on race.

I'm not sure about the Danes, but your thoughts about us Dutch are off by a significant margin.
Over 100,000 Dutch jews were deported to concentration camps and killed. Percentage wise, more jews were killed from the Netherlands then any other occupied country except Poland.
There was a resistance movement of course, like in any occupied country, but it made little impression on the Nazis. The only real act of disobedience that sticks out is the February Strike, but that was only a sporadic outburst of general dissatisfaction with the occupying force, not so much an outcry against how jews were treated, if at all.

[Fragony]

The polish have been a bit naughty in Jedwabne.

The only real act of disobedience that sticks out is the February Strike

Even wiesanthal himselve said we are way to hard on ourselves when it comes to WWII, just fashionable to say we were so wrong. February strike was quite unheard of.

[Kralizec]

Even wiesanthal himselve

Who?

A thing like the Februari Strike was indeed unheard of, for Dutch standards at the time. It was a sporadic outburst, frenzied up by communists (praise be upon them, always among the first to rise up against the Germans). I challenge you to find any other act of disobedience towards the occupiers of a similar magnitude. Hint: you'll find none, because it didn't happen.

Our behavious in WW2 is nothing to be proud of, that said I wouldn't call it a black page in our history either.

[Fragony]

Who?

A thing like the Februari Strike was indeed unheard of, for Dutch standards at the time. It was a sporadic outburst, frenzied up by communists (praise be upon them, always among the first to rise up against the Germans). I challenge you to find any other act of disobedience towards the occupiers of a similar magnitude. Hint: you'll find none, because it didn't happen.

Our behavious in WW2 is nothing to be proud of, that said I wouldn't call it a black page in our history either.

Oh me spelled wrong.

I challenge you to find one other then that strike in the whole of europe, unheard of for european standards you mean. The Netherlands have helped thousands of german jews flee to the UK and the US in the thirties. And it is not surprising that a lot of our jews died, we just had so many of them. And don't forget that unlike Denmark, the germans took over the whole administration, the danish had all the time in the world to ship a handfull of jews (7000) to Sweden. I believe we also had the highest number survivers because of normal families giving them shelter, I could be wrong though. The jews certainly look more favourable upon us dutchies then we do ourselves, I guess self-loathing is da bomb nowadays.

[Kraxis]

Unheard of?

What about the Danish general strike in the summer of 44? And leading up to it was a number of smaller strikes. In the end the Germans were forced to cave in on certain points... that was unheard of.

[Fragony]

Unheard of?

What about the Danish general strike in the summer of 44? And leading up to it was a number of smaller strikes. In the end the Germans were forced to cave in on certain points... that was unheard of.

And something completily different. In 44 all the Danish jews were allready herding mooses in safety, this dutch strike was specifically against the deportation of jews.

[Kraxis]

Ah, but the way you mentioned it it came off as being the only general strike.

[Husar]

German doctrine of murder based on race.

[Goofball]

German doctrine of murder based on race.

I see nothing funny about the snippet you quoted. Please explain.

[KrooK]

Goodfall
wanna proof - ok about collaborators.
during ww2 there were French, Walons, Netherlands, Norwegian, Ukrainian, Lethonian, Croatian and others legions of SS (part of Waffen SS) But there have never beer polish legion of SS. Germans tried to organise it but no one wanted join.

Jedwabne was black page into polish history, but it was one accident during war. Furthermore Poles never tried to hid that - even in communism.
In Poland Germans killed for helping Jew, but all society helped them. Many persons who were nationalist before war, helped Jews.

Now we are accused of racism but peoples who do it, forget about something. Most of these accusations is from USA and France. They ask Jews about polish racism, but they are doing mistake. They ask american Jews, but never polish Jews. Actually a year ago into "Le Figaro" there were article about polish racism. Conclusion of that article was - "Jews - be careful. Poland is full of skins, racists and no one try to stop it."
When journalists showed that article polish Jew community - they answer was simple - LIE.
And what happened a year later - into happy, tolerant France they burned some (thousand of ) cars.
Furthermore Frenchmen describing Poles as collaborators wanna clean their own history. During WW2 France was full of collabourators. After defeat in 1940 harly one supported De Gaule. Collaborators were not exepctions but they were in every part of society.
Check the fact - 4000 Jewish doctors was sent do camps during war. 800 of them was betrayed by French friends. Who did that- elite of society.

As a conclusion - when I'm reading about polish camps - I'm getting angry because someones head are like this wall

[Louis VI the Fat]

Krook, you lump an awful lot of facts, semi-facts and rubbish together that are not necessarily related.

Your main grievance seems to be: Ausswitsch is perceived to be a Polish camp just for being located in Poland, when in fact it was Nazi camp. Thus creating or perpetuating an unjustified view of Polish history during WWII.

Why not limit yourself to that? You may have some sort of point, even though I think you'll find you vastly underestimate the knowledge of WWII most people have.

Your case would benefit from refraining from gratuitous swipes at America, Jews and France. It would also benefit from not trying to claim that there is some sort of Jewish or French conspiracy to blemish Polish history in an effort to 'clean their own history'.

[Papewaio]

I see nothing funny about the snippet you quoted. Please explain.

Compare these:

German doctrine of murder based on race.

Nazi doctrine of murder based on race.

Which is more accurate?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I didn't get what was so peculiar about Goofball's quote either. Maybe it was the percieved semantic lumping of 'German' and 'nazi' indeed.

However, nothing in Goofball's post implied he confused or even meant to equal the two. He clearly speaks of Germany during WWII, even mentioning nazi policy. To read more into it is unnecessary.

However that may be, IMO: Germany is not national-socialistic by nature. Rather, nazism was an aberration of German history. But, the reverse does hold true - that nazism was German by nature. German history was far from a 'long road to Ausschwitz'. Ausschwitz however was the result of German history.

One does not do justice to Germany to claim nazism was inevitable, and one does not do justice to history to claim nazism wasn't German.

[Strike For The South]

People are to sensitive. The Holacuast happend it sucked but now its over. Theres no use holding it over peoples heads. Now we shouldnt forget it but having laws against say something agianst it is abouslutly absurd.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Strike, would you believe I actually consider you to be the most intelligent man on this board?

As always, with a few strokes of your mighty pen you have made decades of philosophical and historical enquiry obsolete, condemning entire libraries to the dustbin of history.

Learn to spell too, and I proclaim you God.

[Strike For The South]

Youve just replaced the greatest Texan. IN TEH SIGG

[Strike For The South]

I knew this might happen. I know full well what the US education system is like. My grandfather was brought up in Boston. He graduated high school there, then he came home and had to retake some courses as the ones earned in the US weren't worth the paper they were prnted on so to speak.

Hate is the wrong word, pity, agrevation, superiority, closed mindedness. Those are words I'd use to describe my attitude to the USA.

Also paying attention in history is the key. Do a poll and find out how many kids think that the civil war and the civil rights movement happened oncurrently.

And being that I obsorb as much of your mass media as I do I'll always feel perfectly within my rights to comment on anything that I percieve a wrong with your society or government or people. Bitch all you want, I spoken and will not change my mind.

P.S. I'm moderate too, you should hear my mom go on about ignorant americans.

Your complete igonarnce shows nothing but a short sighted arrogance that Americans are dumb and somehow you are better. You been listneing to to much anti American propaganda. Im not saying all Americans are smart or even logical. Just remember who is the most poweful country on the planet we didnt get there by drawing straws.

[PanzerJaeger]

But there have never beer polish legion of SS. Germans tried to organise it but no one wanted join.

Interesting. Do you have any sources on that attempted formation?

I know the Germans attempted to get Poles to guard the camps with little success, but I was under the impression that after seeing the fighting abilities of the Poles, the SS did not consider them worthy for anything other than menial labor.

Possibly toward the end of the war when they were forced to churn out substandard eastern legions it may have happened - I would certainly be interested in such an endevour.

[AntiochusIII]

I know the Germans attempted to get Poles to guard the camps with little success, but I was under the impression that after seeing the fighting abilities of the Poles, the SS did not consider them worthy for anything other than menial labor.

Oh, Poles can fight, alright, they just weren't very enthusiastic to fight for their oppressors who considered them sub-humans for slavery and extinction.

Not surprising, really. Just look at the struggle in Warsaw and the Nazi efforts to crush the poorly-armed, brave civilians of that city.

[PanzerJaeger]

I was refering to the German mindset of the time. It is fairly obvious that a group defined as subhuman would not meet the qualifications of a nation's elite fighting force.

Of course, as I mentioned, towards the end of the war, the SS was a shadow of its former self, so it could very well be possible that the Germans sought a Polish legion.

I will keep my personal opinions of the poles as a people and their fighting abilities private.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Meh, when a bunch of people with 20 guns or so between them can hold off the German army in a ghetto for longer than it took the Germans to conquer the whole of Poland, I'd say they're decent.

Crazed Rabbit

[Husar]

Compare these:

German doctrine of murder based on race.

Nazi doctrine of murder based on race.

Which is more accurate?

My hero.

[lars573]

Your complete igonarnce shows nothing but a short sighted arrogance that Americans are dumb and somehow you are better. You been listneing to to much anti American propaganda. Im not saying all Americans are smart or even logical. Just remember who is the most poweful country on the planet we didnt get there by drawing straws.

I am better (but I'm better than most people of any persuastion), and you are dumb as a nation. Facts are facts, your education system sucks (and ours has started to slide becaue of you). And you got to be the most powerful country by buying the position from the UK. I blame the south, all the examples of ignoirant moronic americans I have involve southerners. A Texan and a South Carolinian.

[Ser Clegane]

It would be fantastic if this thread could stay on topic - if anybody has the urge to discuss the US education system, please feel free to open a new thread dedicated to that topic.

I'd like to quote myself for anybody who has problems with reading.

Any more attempts to pull this off-topic and/or turn this into a country bashing thread will be more than frowned upon.

[Redleg]

nevermind

[Redleg]

I am better (but I'm better than most people of any persuastion), and you are dumb as a nation. Facts are facts, your education system sucks (and ours has started to slide becaue of you). And you got to be the most powerful country by buying the position from the UK. I blame the south, all the examples of ignoirant moronic americans I have involve southerners. A Texan and a South Carolinian.

I wonder how many warning points cost.

[lars573]

How much you got?

[Ironside]

Zitat von lars573

To go very off-topic. German as the forum language Redleg?

Or is the board fooling around?

And to be somewhat on topic, a search on google with "holocaust polish anti-semitism" seems to indicate that the current (percived? will only get English (American) sources) Polish anti-semitism has very little to with WWII directly but is of a later date.

[KrooK]

I repeat guys - and I repeat it with sadness.

American sources are not impartial. Most of them base on facts or opinions from mid fourties and early fifties - from the middle of Cold War, when Poland was enemy of USA.
Anti-semitism rising - American Jews keep telling about that from last 50 years but polish Jews tell something else. Marek Edelman - leader of Ghetto Rising is not liked by American Jews, because some years ago he told that American sources are not impartial and some authors simply lie.

Auxillary units into German Army were part of SS. Actually not many pps know how big was SS. Nazist wanted organize polish legions to fight with Russians but no one wanted join.

"Nazist attemps Poles to guard camps" Some Poles were kapo but they had simply choice - be kapo or be dead. Poles were never full members of camps staff like Lethonians, Ukrainians or Croatians.

And something really sad - biologogical racism, demanding same things like nasism, has not been invented by Germans. Englishman did it.

As a conclusion I'm happy that (exept some strange educatet persons you)know that nazist camps were not polish camps. In our language adjective polski (polish) might mean not just "In Poland" but "owned by Poles". So I hope you understand my opinion about using "polish camps" words.

[Redleg]

To go very off-topic. German as the forum language Redleg?

Go right ahead. Your making assumptions that a non-German speaker could not figure out what is being stated.

Edit: Opps missed that one. Thanks Ser C

And to be somewhat on topic, a search on google with "holocaust polish anti-semitism" seems to indicate that the current (percived? will only get English (American) sources) Polish anti-semitism has very little to with WWII directly but is of a later date.

I would image you are correct. If I remember my history correctly, Poland had one of the larger concentration of Jews of most European countries prior to the war.