Foetuses 'cannot experience pain'

[Navaros]

There is no such thing as a "foetus" or "fetus", only unborn babies.

They definitely can feel pain, no matter what any quack study says.

And murdering them will always be the epitome of evil, and proof that much of "society" are nothing more than evil barbarians rather than civilized human beings.

[Radier]

JAG, you do not feel pain either if I give you some pills and then kill you.
Just because very young babies do not feel pain you don't have the right to kill them. That's murder.

[Duke Malcolm]

I have to admit "Linked to pro-choice groups" suggests that this professor is somewhat biased on the matter. An independent study would be better -- this is comparable to those studies funded by tobacco companies into the effects of tobacco which come out saying cigarettes do no or very little harm...

[Vladimir]

It reminds me of another BBC story that claimed that the Black Death brought on the Medieval cooling period because of all the nasty tree cutting Europeans that it killed. Rubbish.

[Proletariat]

Sweet. I'm going to go torture a quadriplegic from the neck down.

[Devastatin Dave]

Sweet. I'm going to go torture a quadriplegic from the neck down.

[Lemur]

This is the same argument people make for circumcising infant boys. And I don't buy it one bit. Watch a video of a male baby being circumcised (I have). He's feeling it, no question.

This is as stupid as people who declare that animals don't have feelings, because they can't tell you about them. At the pre-verbal phase, all you have is feelings.

[Divinus Arma]

Sweet. I'm going to go torture a quadriplegic from the neck down.

Well said.

By Jag's logic, you could also kill the quadriplegic by stabbing her in the chest. Or better yet, take a chain saw to their back! They wouldn't even have to know they are being murdered until it is too late! Yay!



HERE IS A PERSONAL STORY THAT ILLUSTARTES HOW EVEN A 13 WEEK OLD IS A HUMAN:

My wife is pregnant and has Hyper eEmecis. Very difficult since she is a little person naturally. Anyway, we went to the emergency room for the fourth time in 30 days because she was so dehydrated.

The nurse used a doppler radar to search for the baby's heartbeat. She kept looking, but couldn't find it. This is at about 13 weeks old, so it is very tiny. Anyway, she kept looking and I started to get very nervous. She called in a second nurse to help her, and I was starting to think that maybe the wife might *god forbid* miscarry. I was starting to freak.

And then the second nurse found the heartbeat. I could hear it through the radar device. thumpa thumpa thumpa thumpa. Quick, but healthy- perfectly normal she said. *SIGH*

I can't describe how I felt. My Child became real to me right then and there. It was no longer some intangible concept of what *might* be. It became a real and living human being, my son or daughter, alive and growing, waiting to be born and experience our world.

I instantly fell in love with him/her. Total attachment. And that shocked me, because I did not expect to become that attached to this little 2 inch long fetus so suddenly.

So, this convo has become permanently moot to me. That is my child. It is a human being. It just happens to be really tiny and completely and totally helpless.

So make no mistake, that independant heartbeat is another living human being. When that heartbeat stops, he or she dies. And if we make it stop, then that is murder.

[Reverend Joe]

So I'm a murderer. Or I would be willing to be.

I need to take a break from the backroom. I almost posted a few extremely blunt words that are fully inappropriate for this setting.

[Ser Clegane]

When that heartbeat stops, he or she dies. And if we make it stop, then that is murder.

So I'm a murderer. Or I would be willing to be.

I need to take a break from the backroom.

Some words of caution here as we touch a very tricky issue here. I understand DA's point (and that of other pople who strictly oppose abortion) - if you consider a fetus at a ceratin stage to be equivalent to a human being - aborting/killing has to be consequently considered as murder.

However, if you - like Zorba do not consider the fetus the equivalent of a human being, then you do not consider abortion to be murder and naturally take exception to being called a murderer.

I think the discussion here would benefit from focusing on the core questions, e.g. (at what stage) is a fetus equivalent to a human being (or close enough to be considered one), thus subjects of the same (or similar) basic rights of a "born" human being.
The answer any of us would give to the above question already implies the opinion about what abortion is - no need for assigning potentially offensive labels to whoever disagrees with your view.

Isn't circumcision a massive deviation from the subject?

It is - if there is enough interest to discuss this issue, please start a new thread

[A.Saturnus]

I can't describe how I felt. My Child became real to me right then and there. It was no longer some intangible concept of what *might* be. It became a real and living human being, my son or daughter, alive and growing, waiting to be born and experience our world.

I instantly fell in love with him/her. Total attachment. And that shocked me, because I did not expect to become that attached to this little 2 inch long fetus so suddenly.

So, this convo has become permanently moot to me. That is my child. It is a human being. It just happens to be really tiny and completely and totally helpless.

So make no mistake, that independant heartbeat is another living human being. When that heartbeat stops, he or she dies. And if we make it stop, then that is murder.

Oxytocine. A very normal reaction induced by release of this hormone, due to the scoial and emotional evaluation of the situation. Actually, the stress you felt before it may have increased or even caused the effect.

Don't get me wrong, this is not a pro or contra abortion argument, I'm just pointing out that we should not base the answers to socially relevant question as what a heartbeat constitutes on your emotional reaction.

[Reverend Joe]

Being anti-life myself, I really can't say I give a good goddamn whether the little bugger feels it or not. The fact is, it is fully inside the woman, and therefore it is her goddamn choice whether to kill it or not. Until it can survive independantly of the mother (i.e. when the umbilical cord is cut) it is her property, because it is part of her.

Also, look at it this way: if you had a person inside you, wnd you wanted them out, would you really care what they thought?

Edit: I should make it clear that this is all my deranged, fevered opinion. It is not an attempt to state fact.