Late and early Carthaginian spearmen

**Slider6977** · 04-15-2006, 09:46

Just wanted some background on early and late Liby-Phonecian infantry and Lybian spearmen. As described in the unit descriptions, later variations of these units, the heavier Liby-Phonecian Heavy Infantry and Libyan Heavy Spearmen were equipped with mail shirts as opposed to linen cuirass for the lighter troops.

I wanted to know when this transformation took place. How much earlier from the start of the game? Just wondering when the more heavily armored units apperared more predominantly on the battlefield. Was it a little later in the game or were they already in wide use by the date of 272?

Also, any background on Numidian cavalry would be great. I always thought the Numidians fielded a heavier type of cavalry then is reflected in the game. Is the current unit more historically accurate, or are there any plans to add a heavier Numidian cavalry unit to go with the current list?

**Sarcasm** · 04-15-2006, 16:51

Originally Posted by Slider6977

Just wanted some background on early and late Liby-Phonecian infantry and Lybian spearmen. As described in the unit descriptions, later variations of these units, the heavier Liby-Phonecian Heavy Infantry and Libyan Heavy Spearmen were equipped with mail shirts as opposed to linen cuirass for the lighter troops.

I wanted to know when this transformation took place. How much earlier from the start of the game? Just wondering when the more heavily armored units apperared more predominantly on the battlefield. Was it a little later in the game or were they already in wide use by the date of 272?

Also, any background on Numidian cavalry would be great. I always thought the Numidians fielded a heavier type of cavalry then is reflected in the game. Is the current unit more historically accurate, or are there any plans to add a heavier Numidian cavalry unit to go with the current list?

I'm no historian, but I'll try to answer this for you. Hopefully correctly.

The Liby-Phoenicians constitued a large portion of the Carthaginian and Phoenician (2 different things altogether) colonies' population. They were the result of the mixing between the Phoenician-origin upper-class citizens and their Libyan subjects.

They were mostly barred from the higher hierarchy of the military (there are notable exceptions), and the elite units that were made up of the highest-class citizens.

They were, however, one step above normal libyans and formed the core of what would normally constitute a "citizen"-phalanx in the greek world, since the higher classes were so reluctant to enroll in it (except in the direst cases). They are part of what the classic historians refer to as the African infantry, fighting in a phalanx of some sort and armed in the greek fashion (including linen armor). Later, upon contact with the Romans, they are said to do away with their armor own armor and replace it with the fallen romans' (2nd Punic war). Other sources of influence might also have existed, since that account is from a Roman point of view.

Libyans seem to have been relegated to secondary roles, like skirmishers and auxiliary formations.

As for the Numidian cavalry, the represented type of cavalry was by far the most common, most famous and most effective type of numidian cavalry. Presumably, they might have had heavier types of cavalry for the upper classes (something along the lines of medium cavalry, just for logic's sake), but the core of their force (and their most prized asset, for its "allies") were the skirmishing cavalry -quite possibly the best in the western world.

There's a good depiction of them in the trajan column. They rode without sadle or bridle, just with a small rope and a little stick to lead the horse, and fought with javelins and a small buckler. More than a match for the much more expensive and heavier equipped Roman equites.

**Slider6977** · 04-15-2006, 23:37

Thank you for more background on the Numidian Cavalry, very informative. I already knew a lot about the seperation of Liby-Phonecian and pure lybians and other africans, etc.. But my question is really about when the more heavily armored soldiers were used more in larger numbers than their less armored brotherin. I quess this would also be relevant for greek Thureophoroi and Thorakitai units. When did the more heavily armored of these more versatile units appear more predominantly on the battlefield?

Basically, when is it more historically accurate to use these heavier units? Were they in wide use at the start of the game, or years later, as for the carthaginians, when they fought the first punic war against Rome.

**Ambiorix** · 04-16-2006, 01:29

I'm pretty sure they started using heavier infantry much more commonly when they enlisted the services of Xanthippus. Being a Greek he molded the army to what he was familiar with. This is just off the top of my head, and hopefully will tide you over until someone with more knowledge comes in here.