Any new spartan unit in the making?

[paullus]

Can you really say "what exactly is historical"? We're dealing with several hundred years of pretty significant changes--political, social, economic and presumably military. Historically, the elite of the equals in 272 probably looked different from the elites in 222, and so on. Even within the soldiers in 272, some of the soldiers probably had fancier cuirasses than others. And unless you know of some Hellenistic period greaves or tomb paintings or reliefs or cuirasses from Sparta, then its all pretty speculative anyway.

And may I suggest being willing to make a small stretch by including "beauty" as a factor in discerning reasonability/accuracy, especially in a speculative case like this one.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

My thoughts pretty much paullus. We are going to err, of course, in our depiction. Too many variables to account for especially given the restrictions of our game engine. But I'm willing to err a little more on the side of having more elaborate gear than erring too much on the other side (plus, I like countering the general idea most folks have of the artistically-deprived Spartans, which isn't the case).

I would note that any elaborate metalwork would probably have come from outside of Lakonia at this time though. I haven't mentioned this internally yet, but today I've been reading a little more about "Lakonian artistic production and the problem of spartan austerity". Lakonian metalwork itself really did suffer at this point in their history (especially as compared to the boom in the sixth century), but as these men have mostly served as mercs, much of their armor was acquired outside of Lakonia.

[Forgus]

Continuing the internal struggle outside - though I sworn to remain silent -
To me a metal cuirass - well probably, fancy graves? - maybe. Helm fit for a king - hmmm, if you say so. But these together? Hardly. Pompous enough for a monach in Persia...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

From what I've heard, one of those three will also be simplified Forgus, in addition to the cloak. So maybe we can all come to an agreement, or at least closer to one. I'm anxiously awaiting the screenshots. I do think a little discussion out here is a good thing.

[paullus]

As far as luxuries, you could look at it this way: many of these guys (may) have served in the armies of Seleukus or Ptolemy etc, and been well paid. In the case of Ptolemy especially, they could very well have been paid the money to afford or even straight-up given very nice equipment. How do you think the first couple of Ptolemy's (nearly) blew the bank? I mean, I haven't seen the concepts you guys are throwing around, but a well-accoutred (though not gaudy) soldier seems pretty reasonable.

And what are you thinking for the shields? A hoplon I hope, but what would you put on it?
And just what did you mean by "a helm fit for a king"?
Thanks!

[Sarcasm]

As far as luxuries, you could look at it this way: many of these guys (may) have served in the armies of Seleukus or Ptolemy etc, and been well paid. In the case of Ptolemy especially, they could very well have been paid the money to afford or even straight-up given very nice equipment. How do you think the first couple of Ptolemy's (nearly) blew the bank? I mean, I haven't seen the concepts you guys are throwing around, but a well-accoutred (though not gaudy) soldier seems pretty reasonable.

And what are you thinking for the shields? A hoplon I hope, but what would you put on it?
And just what did you mean by "a helm fit for a king"?
Thanks!

The first spartan skin used a muscle cuirass with ornate stomach, an ornate pilos helmet and very ornate greaves as well, all bronze.

It wore a red tunic underneath, and a *very* beatifull cloak on top of everything.

As armament it carried an hoplon with bronze sheeting and traditional lambda, plus a spear.

****************

As for my personal opinion, a combat unit could not have possibly have that kind of luxury. Perhaps a close bodyguard of a few dozen men, but that's all.

I believe even as mercenaries they wouldn't be able to afford everything quite like that (afterall, our mistophoroi aren't even equipped with bronze). The most attested piece is surely the helmet, and that may stay in its current form, but the other things should be simplified.

[Sarcasm]

EDIT: Weird double post, one with an edit and one without...

[Kampfduck]

any news about these guys? will they be implanted in version 0.8?

cheers

[fallen851]

I'll be happy with any Spartan that doesn't have a red cloak on.

Which reminds me, who did the research for CA on this period?

The Spartans never wore their red cloaks in combat!

[Avicenna]

I'll be happy with any Spartan that doesn't have a red cloak on.

Which reminds me, who did the research for CA on this period?

The Spartans never wore their red cloaks in combat!

I think the Spartans did. I don't think the objective was to have them look terrifying only in front of their allies and subordinates in the camp. They were meant to terrify the opposition.

[fallen851]

I think the Spartans did. I don't think the objective was to have them look terrifying only in front of their allies and subordinates in the camp. They were meant to terrify the opposition.

Great. They did not wear them in combat, they do not have arm holes, so they would have to "peel" the cloak back in combat, meaning it would get in their way and fight them everytime they did anything. Secondly the wind wouldn't do them (or the people behind them) any favors.

They used the cloaks as blankets at night and for protection from the weather. They did not wear them in combat.

As John Warry reports on page 47 of Warfare in the Classical World: "The red cloak seen in the illustration was the charateristic Spartan uniform. It was discarded in battle."

And on page 52 he states: "The enveloping cloak could also serve as a blanket, but it was not worn in battle."

Twice he quite clearly states the cloak was not worn in battle. I remember reading some other sources repeating the above, I'll find them if necessary, but I thought this was established...

Sadly it seems the sterotypical image of the Spartan has many people here fooled (much like the sterotypical image of King Arthur with 13th century armor).

[Elthore]

thats john warry's opinion, and im sure he wasnt a spartan

[Avicenna]

Great. They did not wear them in combat, they do not have arm holes, so they would have to "peel" the cloak back in combat, meaning it would get in their way and fight them everytime they did anything. Secondly the wind wouldn't do them (or the people behind them) any favors.

They used the cloaks as blankets at night and for protection from the weather. They did not wear them in combat.

As John Warry reports on page 47 of Warfare in the Classical World: "The red cloak seen in the illustration was the charateristic Spartan uniform. It was discarded in battle."

And on page 52 he states: "The enveloping cloak could also serve as a blanket, but it was not worn in battle."

Twice he quite clearly states the cloak was not worn in battle. I remember reading some other sources repeating the above, I'll find them if necessary, but I thought this was established...

Sadly it seems the sterotypical image of the Spartan has many people here fooled (much like the sterotypical image of King Arthur with 13th century armor).

... and he obviously has a greater knowledge of the Spartans than the Greek historians? I forgot who it was, since my books are back at school.

The cloak was over one of the shoulders (left, I believe) and then under the other, the right one, so it wouldn't get in the way of the arm with the spear held in its hand.

I really don't think that my exam course will be less reliable than your reading of a British or American book.

Anyway, Lykourgos said that the cloak served to make handsome men more so and ugly men more terrifying. Unless they can telepathically reach their opponents, this shows that they wore them into battle to instill fear into their opponents.

[Idomeneas]

I think the Spartans did. I don't think the objective was to have them look terrifying only in front of their allies and subordinates in the camp. They were meant to terrify the opposition.

many scholars support that they didnt wore the cloaks in battle. But even if there were not scholars supporting it a simple visit in greece would be enough to prove that there is no possible way to wear a cloak under the summer sun. The armour by itself is enough to exhaust you from heat. Wear a cloak also... you must be crazy..

I will inform you that even the army helmets are a pain in the ass today in mid summer. In very hot days they issue orders to remove them in guard duty.

[VandalCarthage]

You guys are misunderstanding; our unit doesn't have the full red cloak of Spartan tradition, just a small one.