Any new spartan unit in the making?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

From what I've heard, one of those three will also be simplified Forgus, in addition to the cloak. So maybe we can all come to an agreement, or at least closer to one. I'm anxiously awaiting the screenshots. I do think a little discussion out here is a good thing.

[paullus]

As far as luxuries, you could look at it this way: many of these guys (may) have served in the armies of Seleukus or Ptolemy etc, and been well paid. In the case of Ptolemy especially, they could very well have been paid the money to afford or even straight-up given very nice equipment. How do you think the first couple of Ptolemy's (nearly) blew the bank? I mean, I haven't seen the concepts you guys are throwing around, but a well-accoutred (though not gaudy) soldier seems pretty reasonable.

And what are you thinking for the shields? A hoplon I hope, but what would you put on it?
And just what did you mean by "a helm fit for a king"?
Thanks!

[Sarcasm]

As far as luxuries, you could look at it this way: many of these guys (may) have served in the armies of Seleukus or Ptolemy etc, and been well paid. In the case of Ptolemy especially, they could very well have been paid the money to afford or even straight-up given very nice equipment. How do you think the first couple of Ptolemy's (nearly) blew the bank? I mean, I haven't seen the concepts you guys are throwing around, but a well-accoutred (though not gaudy) soldier seems pretty reasonable.

And what are you thinking for the shields? A hoplon I hope, but what would you put on it?
And just what did you mean by "a helm fit for a king"?
Thanks!

The first spartan skin used a muscle cuirass with ornate stomach, an ornate pilos helmet and very ornate greaves as well, all bronze.

It wore a red tunic underneath, and a *very* beatifull cloak on top of everything.

As armament it carried an hoplon with bronze sheeting and traditional lambda, plus a spear.

****************

As for my personal opinion, a combat unit could not have possibly have that kind of luxury. Perhaps a close bodyguard of a few dozen men, but that's all.

I believe even as mercenaries they wouldn't be able to afford everything quite like that (afterall, our mistophoroi aren't even equipped with bronze). The most attested piece is surely the helmet, and that may stay in its current form, but the other things should be simplified.

[Sarcasm]

EDIT: Weird double post, one with an edit and one without...

[Kampfduck]

any news about these guys? will they be implanted in version 0.8?

cheers

[-Praetor-]

Wait just a minute: This units are going to serve as a regular recruitable unit, or as a mercenary???

I think that both units should be substancially different. If the team is creating only the Spartan Citizen-Soldier (non-mercenary), it shouldn`t mix elements that the spartan mercenaries used with elements that the regional unit used, and vice-versa.

What i`m saying, is that plz be careful by not mixing two units that historically may have been very different, and portraying them just as plain "Spartans".

Nevertheless, given the true excellence of the team`s previous work, I trust they will choose the most histrically accurate choice available.

Bye.

[fallen851]

I'll be happy with any Spartan that doesn't have a red cloak on.

Which reminds me, who did the research for CA on this period?

The Spartans never wore their red cloaks in combat!

[fallen851]

We pretty much have agreed to drop any pattern on the cloak and any fancy border on it - that was the big first move.

Uhh this is getting bad, there won't be a cloak will there be?

All the sources I've read say the Spartans never wore their cloaks in combat, they left them in the camp.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

There are cloaks on the unit. I didn't supply the specs for the unit equipment - maybe the person who did will post, but I doubt it unless the conversation gets heated.

[Avicenna]

I'll be happy with any Spartan that doesn't have a red cloak on.

Which reminds me, who did the research for CA on this period?

The Spartans never wore their red cloaks in combat!

I think the Spartans did. I don't think the objective was to have them look terrifying only in front of their allies and subordinates in the camp. They were meant to terrify the opposition.

[fallen851]

I think the Spartans did. I don't think the objective was to have them look terrifying only in front of their allies and subordinates in the camp. They were meant to terrify the opposition.

Great. They did not wear them in combat, they do not have arm holes, so they would have to "peel" the cloak back in combat, meaning it would get in their way and fight them everytime they did anything. Secondly the wind wouldn't do them (or the people behind them) any favors.

They used the cloaks as blankets at night and for protection from the weather. They did not wear them in combat.

As John Warry reports on page 47 of Warfare in the Classical World: "The red cloak seen in the illustration was the charateristic Spartan uniform. It was discarded in battle."

And on page 52 he states: "The enveloping cloak could also serve as a blanket, but it was not worn in battle."

Twice he quite clearly states the cloak was not worn in battle. I remember reading some other sources repeating the above, I'll find them if necessary, but I thought this was established...

Sadly it seems the sterotypical image of the Spartan has many people here fooled (much like the sterotypical image of King Arthur with 13th century armor).

[Elthore]

thats john warry's opinion, and im sure he wasnt a spartan

[abou]

Well, that Warry book is awesome, but remember that a long cloak can really get in the way of body movement and is something that can get caught on objects. Granted it looks cool; however, is there really any practical reason to have it on during battle?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The version of the spartan hoplite that we present is about as far from the stereotypical version of a spartan as one can imagine. It is a unit that serves most of their time as mercenaries in distant places, that are well armed and decorated. They may irritate some people who want a Thermopylai soldier out of the pages of Herodotos, but I don't think there will be many people complaining that they are too stereotypically Spartan. You may have the market cornered on that argument.

[Idomeneas]

I think the Spartans did. I don't think the objective was to have them look terrifying only in front of their allies and subordinates in the camp. They were meant to terrify the opposition.

many scholars support that they didnt wore the cloaks in battle. But even if there were not scholars supporting it a simple visit in greece would be enough to prove that there is no possible way to wear a cloak under the summer sun. The armour by itself is enough to exhaust you from heat. Wear a cloak also... you must be crazy..

I will inform you that even the army helmets are a pain in the ass today in mid summer. In very hot days they issue orders to remove them in guard duty.

[VandalCarthage]

You guys are misunderstanding; our unit doesn't have the full red cloak of Spartan tradition, just a small one.

[abou]

You guys are misunderstanding; our unit doesn't have the full red cloak of Spartan tradition, just a small one.

Can it be pink?

[Avicenna]

Great. They did not wear them in combat, they do not have arm holes, so they would have to "peel" the cloak back in combat, meaning it would get in their way and fight them everytime they did anything. Secondly the wind wouldn't do them (or the people behind them) any favors.

They used the cloaks as blankets at night and for protection from the weather. They did not wear them in combat.

As John Warry reports on page 47 of Warfare in the Classical World: "The red cloak seen in the illustration was the charateristic Spartan uniform. It was discarded in battle."

And on page 52 he states: "The enveloping cloak could also serve as a blanket, but it was not worn in battle."

Twice he quite clearly states the cloak was not worn in battle. I remember reading some other sources repeating the above, I'll find them if necessary, but I thought this was established...

Sadly it seems the sterotypical image of the Spartan has many people here fooled (much like the sterotypical image of King Arthur with 13th century armor).

... and he obviously has a greater knowledge of the Spartans than the Greek historians? I forgot who it was, since my books are back at school.

The cloak was over one of the shoulders (left, I believe) and then under the other, the right one, so it wouldn't get in the way of the arm with the spear held in its hand.

I really don't think that my exam course will be less reliable than your reading of a British or American book.

Anyway, Lykourgos said that the cloak served to make handsome men more so and ugly men more terrifying. Unless they can telepathically reach their opponents, this shows that they wore them into battle to instill fear into their opponents.

[fallen851]

You guys are misunderstanding; our unit doesn't have the full red cloak of Spartan tradition, just a small one.

Ok, so it has a small cloak, which isn't traditional for a Spartan unit if I understand what you said correct, and you said it quite clearly, but I think you stated it incorrectly? And the cloak was used as blanket, is it big enough to be that?

Warry uses Thucycdides, Xenophon, and Plutarch as his main sources for that chapter.

I looked into Lykourgos, who Plutarch wrote a biography of, so I'm sure Warry is very familiar with him.

But enough with sources, would you wear your blanket in battle? Too often I think people read into sources as if they are end-all be-all arguements. We need to think "Does this make sense?"

I don't think so. It would be hot, it would blow in the wind into spear points, in melee combat, someone could easily grab it from a distance and drag another one down, and it would just get in you way... it simply doesn't make sense. Who would wear a blanket around them?

Spartans weren't dumb, they would not sacrifice combat ability to "scare their enemies" or whatever. The rest of their battle array was designed for protection and mobility, why hamper that?

I'd say that if EB wanted to err on the side of caution, it would remove the cloak. The sources may differ (I haven't looked at this indepth, but the sources I've read said they were discarded), but one thing is for sure, wearing a cloak in battle is not an advantage.

[Fondor_Yards]

Well I don't know much about the spartans of this time period, but what's wrong with a cloak. Kleruchoi agema and elite african pikemen have them, and I think it's hotter in north africa's deserts then in greece. Which brings up the question if they should have 1.

And I doubt someone can grap their cloaks in combat. If it did, it would be their phalanx was already shattered or they were behind them, which meant they were dead anyways. Unless it's 9 foot long cloak, I don't see how it would get in the way of the spearpoints. Plus in a tight phalanx formation, the wind shouldn't be moving their cloak at all. And a small cloak would not have been a blanket, it would have been a cloak.

Of course I don't know much, but that's just using common sense.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Warry uses Thucycdides, Xenophon, and Plutarch as his main sources for that chapter.

I looked into Lykourgos, who Plutarch wrote a biography of, so I'm sure Warry is very familiar with him.

It sounds very much like the sources cited are talking about fifth century spartans.

[abou]

Which is a problem because in the time frame that EB takes place Warry concentrates on the Successor States and Rome against Pyrrhos. There really isn't any mention about the Spartans or their equipment after the Peloponnesian War and conflicts with Thebes.

Then again, the Spartans really didn't do anything from my understanding so Warry's lack of coverage is not out of place.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

There is a vast range of ways Spartans of this period could be depicted. THere is going to be very little way anyone could say certain versions along that range would be incorrect.

[Yun Dog]

Im no historian

but I think there something else to be considered when thinking about armor

I would image armor would be handed down through generations - particularly in a militaristic society - I would envisage the eldest son being given the armor of the father who inheritied it from his father

it would be like a prized family heirloom, kept polished and stored in oil skins

so I think it is possible that any particular soldier could posses fairly elaborate armor be it somewhat antique

so when faced with the choice of armor styling it would be reasonable to err to older or antique armor over perhaps later models for this reason

also given the pride the spartans took in their physical appearance - I think it would also be reasonable to assume that some artistry wouldve gone into their families armor - simplicity in design but done beautifully - I would imagine.

and as there is little hard evidence - I think there is some room for artistic licence here - we shouldnt fall into the trap of making them resemble peasants because we thought them to live in primitive times - some of the most primitive people have the most elaborate, colourful and beautiful ceremonial dress - look at the tribes of PNG

[fallen851]

There is a vast range of ways Spartans of this period could be depicted. THere is going to be very little way anyone could say certain versions along that range would be incorrect.

Yes he is talking about 5th century Spartans, however it doesn't make much sense that later they would suddenly decide to keep their cloaks in combat.

And I think your also correct, that there is very little anyone could say would be incorrect, and I did not say there is a "set" way a Spartan should look except for the fact they should not be wearing cloaks in combat. That is like saying Principes wore Lorica. It just didn't happen. It doesn't make any sense why they would do that.

My point Fondar is you want to have every advantage in combat possible. If you've ever seen the UFC fight between Royce Gracie and Kimo Leopold, where Royce essentially destroys Kimo by pulling his hair and thereby holding his head while he punches him in the face, you realize this. If Kimo hadn't had a pony-tail for looks, he may not have lost. It would be very easy to grab a part of the Spartan cloak and rip him to the ground (just like it was easy for Royce to grab Kimo's hair), especially if your weapons (such as some of the ones the Persians used) were unable to pierce his armor.


This thread is done, I can bring all the evidence in the world, I can have people agree or disagree, and I'll never change the minds of the people in EB, who consistently fall on ad-hoc arguments despite my challenges.

Oh well, I'll just have to mod the Spartan myself.

[Ludens]

This thread is done, I can bring all the evidence in the world, I can have people agree or disagree, and I'll never change the minds of the people in EB, who consistently fall on ad-hoc arguments despite my challenges.

I think you are being a bit oversensitive here: TA's remark (the one you cite) was not specifically directed at you, but at everyone in this thread. I am quite sure that the 5th century Spartan hoplite did not wear his cloak into battle. However, this does not mean that 3th century Spartan hoplite did the same. Especially not when the cloak had been shortened so it was not as much of a liability. Other peoples did wear their cloaks into battle and they must have had some reason to do that, even one as simple as not leaving it in the camp to be stolen or looted.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

This thread is done, I can bring all the evidence in the world, I can have people agree or disagree, and I'll never change the minds of the people in EB, who consistently fall on ad-hoc arguments despite my challenges.

Oh well, I'll just have to mod the Spartan myself.

I don't get the drama over the cloak. If you feel the unit is so wrong, the unit that no one here has seen yet (gah), then feel free to mod it any way you like for your personal build. But you act consistantly like EB is so wrong-minded and deaf to comments or criticism - this month because there will be a cloak on this one unit. I know you like a lot of the aspects of the mod, but seriously, it gets rather tiring to see you get upset about something in the mod, that we are making for free, voluntarily, and then get dramatic about it and tell folks you are going to make your own version (be it a whole new stat system or this unit or whatever) and depart in a huff. Where is "all the evidence in the world" for a third century (lack) of a Spartan cloak? I recently saw another depiction of the spartan unit for the third century (that is about as opposite as anyone could imagine from ours) by a very well known skinner/modeler, and it has a cloak too. I don't think I've seen any versions of the unit without them. But *we* won't listen to anyone and are like some big machine that (somehow, for free) runs roughshod over anyone's comments or thoughts on anything.

[Slider6977]

Excellently stated TA. Discussion on the subject is fine, but when you have a person such as this, when opinion is not opinion at all, it is fact, its pretty useless 'discussion'.

This thread is done, I can bring all the evidence in the world, I can have people agree or disagree, and I'll never change the minds of the people in EB, who consistently fall on ad-hoc arguments despite my challenges.

Oh well, I'll just have to mod the Spartan myself.

Last time I checked, I was living in the 21st century, don't know about you. And where is all the evidence in the world to make your point right. It doesn't exist. It is just opinion, and while you complain that you will never change anyones mind, its also true that in your mind your opinion is fact, and no one will ever be able to change YOUR mind. The FACT is, you can not nor never possibly know what they wore in battle, so why attack people that do not share your view on such, especially people who offer their time to provide you will a mod as realistic as POSSIBLE.

Anyway what a great point to make on your 10,000 th post TA .

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We *all* do agree that there is no way we can know for sure what third century spartans looked like. That is good. Our version of the unit will not be liked by some folks, for sure. Like we were mentioning, there is a range of possibilities. Ours is on the higher end of the range for a few different reasons. CB's recent spartans are on the other end. I can't say that all of our details are right, since most of our information does come from earlier periods (for the sparties). But some things we do know about them that greatly affected our view of the unit was that they fought with the king of sparta, and the served as mercenaries from Sicily and Italy and Greece to Crete and probably in much more distant places on occasion too. They used their money to support their families back home, as the helot business had closed up shop by this point in time. Plus this is the third century, not the fifth, so some changes in armor and helmets and such would be obvious. Sparta at this time had just begun to permit the minting of coins and had a reputation acquired with our starting king of allowing more luxuries than at any previous period. Plus, we felt like maybe taking things a little further (not much more for this point though) to get the point across that these are *not* Thermopylai Spartans, and that they have changed quite a bit in many respects. It's a fairly elite unit too, and although that didn't affect the way the unit was directly created, I'm personally glad I have a unit I can look forward to recruiting instead of feeling like it's a step down from my other units. Well, that's just a few general words to further prepare folks for the spartans when they are released. I'm sure there will be plenty more discussion. No problem talking about possibilities here though, as long as we realize what we know and what we don't.

[Fondor_Yards]

Yes he is talking about 5th century Spartans, however it doesn't make much sense that later they would suddenly decide to keep their cloaks in combat.

And I think your also correct, that there is very little anyone could say would be incorrect, and I did not say there is a "set" way a Spartan should look except for the fact they should not be wearing cloaks in combat. That is like saying Principes wore Lorica. It just didn't happen. It doesn't make any sense why they would do that.

My point Fondar is you want to have every advantage in combat possible. If you've ever seen the UFC fight between Royce Gracie and Kimo Leopold, where Royce essentially destroys Kimo by pulling his hair and thereby holding his head while he punches him in the face, you realize this. If Kimo hadn't had a pony-tail for looks, he may not have lost. It would be very easy to grab a part of the Spartan cloak and rip him to the ground (just like it was easy for Royce to grab Kimo's hair), especially if your weapons (such as some of the ones the Persians used) were unable to pierce his armor.


This thread is done, I can bring all the evidence in the world, I can have people agree or disagree, and I'll never change the minds of the people in EB, who consistently fall on ad-hoc arguments despite my challenges.

Oh well, I'll just have to mod the Spartan myself.

Your telling in the 230 years or so from 500 BC to 270 BC*game* the spartans didn't change their outfits or equipment at all? The EB team said they are not bringing the giant cloak blankets you were talking about. They said they were bringing smaller one.

And yes I have seen UCF, but that hardly applies here. Spartans did not fight 1v1 combat all over the battle field, they fought in a phalanx. I like to see some persian*why did you even say persian, the persian empire has been dead for over 100 years at this point* try to grab a spartan's cloak while he's being stabbed by 10 spears.

If you don't like the way EB shows their units, then don't play it. Did you ever stop for a second and think, maybe you were wrong. EB puts countless hours of work in each unit, I doubt they will have units wearing giant blanket cloaks. Other units in game have small cloaks on them as well, which is what they will have.