Any new spartan unit in the making?

[Avicenna]

I'll be happy with any Spartan that doesn't have a red cloak on.

Which reminds me, who did the research for CA on this period?

The Spartans never wore their red cloaks in combat!

I think the Spartans did. I don't think the objective was to have them look terrifying only in front of their allies and subordinates in the camp. They were meant to terrify the opposition.

[fallen851]

I think the Spartans did. I don't think the objective was to have them look terrifying only in front of their allies and subordinates in the camp. They were meant to terrify the opposition.

Great. They did not wear them in combat, they do not have arm holes, so they would have to "peel" the cloak back in combat, meaning it would get in their way and fight them everytime they did anything. Secondly the wind wouldn't do them (or the people behind them) any favors.

They used the cloaks as blankets at night and for protection from the weather. They did not wear them in combat.

As John Warry reports on page 47 of Warfare in the Classical World: "The red cloak seen in the illustration was the charateristic Spartan uniform. It was discarded in battle."

And on page 52 he states: "The enveloping cloak could also serve as a blanket, but it was not worn in battle."

Twice he quite clearly states the cloak was not worn in battle. I remember reading some other sources repeating the above, I'll find them if necessary, but I thought this was established...

Sadly it seems the sterotypical image of the Spartan has many people here fooled (much like the sterotypical image of King Arthur with 13th century armor).

[Elthore]

thats john warry's opinion, and im sure he wasnt a spartan

[abou]

Well, that Warry book is awesome, but remember that a long cloak can really get in the way of body movement and is something that can get caught on objects. Granted it looks cool; however, is there really any practical reason to have it on during battle?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The version of the spartan hoplite that we present is about as far from the stereotypical version of a spartan as one can imagine. It is a unit that serves most of their time as mercenaries in distant places, that are well armed and decorated. They may irritate some people who want a Thermopylai soldier out of the pages of Herodotos, but I don't think there will be many people complaining that they are too stereotypically Spartan. You may have the market cornered on that argument.

[Avicenna]

Great. They did not wear them in combat, they do not have arm holes, so they would have to "peel" the cloak back in combat, meaning it would get in their way and fight them everytime they did anything. Secondly the wind wouldn't do them (or the people behind them) any favors.

They used the cloaks as blankets at night and for protection from the weather. They did not wear them in combat.

As John Warry reports on page 47 of Warfare in the Classical World: "The red cloak seen in the illustration was the charateristic Spartan uniform. It was discarded in battle."

And on page 52 he states: "The enveloping cloak could also serve as a blanket, but it was not worn in battle."

Twice he quite clearly states the cloak was not worn in battle. I remember reading some other sources repeating the above, I'll find them if necessary, but I thought this was established...

Sadly it seems the sterotypical image of the Spartan has many people here fooled (much like the sterotypical image of King Arthur with 13th century armor).

... and he obviously has a greater knowledge of the Spartans than the Greek historians? I forgot who it was, since my books are back at school.

The cloak was over one of the shoulders (left, I believe) and then under the other, the right one, so it wouldn't get in the way of the arm with the spear held in its hand.

I really don't think that my exam course will be less reliable than your reading of a British or American book.

Anyway, Lykourgos said that the cloak served to make handsome men more so and ugly men more terrifying. Unless they can telepathically reach their opponents, this shows that they wore them into battle to instill fear into their opponents.

[Idomeneas]

I think the Spartans did. I don't think the objective was to have them look terrifying only in front of their allies and subordinates in the camp. They were meant to terrify the opposition.

many scholars support that they didnt wore the cloaks in battle. But even if there were not scholars supporting it a simple visit in greece would be enough to prove that there is no possible way to wear a cloak under the summer sun. The armour by itself is enough to exhaust you from heat. Wear a cloak also... you must be crazy..

I will inform you that even the army helmets are a pain in the ass today in mid summer. In very hot days they issue orders to remove them in guard duty.

[VandalCarthage]

You guys are misunderstanding; our unit doesn't have the full red cloak of Spartan tradition, just a small one.

[abou]

You guys are misunderstanding; our unit doesn't have the full red cloak of Spartan tradition, just a small one.

Can it be pink?

[fallen851]

You guys are misunderstanding; our unit doesn't have the full red cloak of Spartan tradition, just a small one.

Ok, so it has a small cloak, which isn't traditional for a Spartan unit if I understand what you said correct, and you said it quite clearly, but I think you stated it incorrectly? And the cloak was used as blanket, is it big enough to be that?

Warry uses Thucycdides, Xenophon, and Plutarch as his main sources for that chapter.

I looked into Lykourgos, who Plutarch wrote a biography of, so I'm sure Warry is very familiar with him.

But enough with sources, would you wear your blanket in battle? Too often I think people read into sources as if they are end-all be-all arguements. We need to think "Does this make sense?"

I don't think so. It would be hot, it would blow in the wind into spear points, in melee combat, someone could easily grab it from a distance and drag another one down, and it would just get in you way... it simply doesn't make sense. Who would wear a blanket around them?

Spartans weren't dumb, they would not sacrifice combat ability to "scare their enemies" or whatever. The rest of their battle array was designed for protection and mobility, why hamper that?

I'd say that if EB wanted to err on the side of caution, it would remove the cloak. The sources may differ (I haven't looked at this indepth, but the sources I've read said they were discarded), but one thing is for sure, wearing a cloak in battle is not an advantage.

[Fondor_Yards]

Well I don't know much about the spartans of this time period, but what's wrong with a cloak. Kleruchoi agema and elite african pikemen have them, and I think it's hotter in north africa's deserts then in greece. Which brings up the question if they should have 1.

And I doubt someone can grap their cloaks in combat. If it did, it would be their phalanx was already shattered or they were behind them, which meant they were dead anyways. Unless it's 9 foot long cloak, I don't see how it would get in the way of the spearpoints. Plus in a tight phalanx formation, the wind shouldn't be moving their cloak at all. And a small cloak would not have been a blanket, it would have been a cloak.

Of course I don't know much, but that's just using common sense.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Warry uses Thucycdides, Xenophon, and Plutarch as his main sources for that chapter.

I looked into Lykourgos, who Plutarch wrote a biography of, so I'm sure Warry is very familiar with him.

It sounds very much like the sources cited are talking about fifth century spartans.

[abou]

Which is a problem because in the time frame that EB takes place Warry concentrates on the Successor States and Rome against Pyrrhos. There really isn't any mention about the Spartans or their equipment after the Peloponnesian War and conflicts with Thebes.

Then again, the Spartans really didn't do anything from my understanding so Warry's lack of coverage is not out of place.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

There is a vast range of ways Spartans of this period could be depicted. THere is going to be very little way anyone could say certain versions along that range would be incorrect.

[Geoffrey S]

Ok, so it has a small cloak, which isn't traditional for a Spartan unit if I understand what you said correct, and you said it quite clearly, but I think you stated it incorrectly? And the cloak was used as blanket, is it big enough to be that?

Warry uses Thucycdides, Xenophon, and Plutarch as his main sources for that chapter.

I looked into Lykourgos, who Plutarch wrote a biography of, so I'm sure Warry is very familiar with him.

But enough with sources, would you wear your blanket in battle? Too often I think people read into sources as if they are end-all be-all arguements. We need to think "Does this make sense?"

But really, it seems you keep assuming that said cloak as it will be depicted in EB will be the huge, full cloak that the spartans slept in according to fifth century sources; the kind of cloaks as they were depicted in the original CA spartan hoplite.

But VandalCarthage has specifically stated that this is not the size of cloak that will be used in EB. Along with the fact that Spartans were not as spartan as may be assumed at the start of the EB game, it would be reasonable to assume they no longer slept in their cloaks but had other equipment for that (what a luxury!), that a cloak will be depicted more like on this unit than like the original unit in RTW. Certainly not a full-length body cloak.

[VandalCarthage]

Ok, so it has a small cloak, which isn't traditional for a Spartan unit if I understand what you said correct, and you said it quite clearly, but I think you stated it incorrectly? And the cloak was used as blanket, is it big enough to be that?

No, it's not, and I said nothing incorrectly - you've just been defining the word cloak for yourself in a very narrow fashion, this whole argument:

Cloak:
1. A loose outer garment, such as a cape.
2. Something that covers or conceals: a cloak of secrecy.

But VandalCarthage has specifically stated that this is not the size of cloak that will be used in EB. Along with the fact that Spartans were not as spartan as may be assumed at the start of the EB game, it would be reasonable to assume they no longer slept in their cloaks but had other equipment for that (what a luxury!), that a cloak will be depicted more like on this unit than like the original unit in RTW. Certainly not a full-length body cloak.

Thanks for listening

If you want pure realism, go play RTR. EB never said it was about 100% historical accuarcy.

That doesn't even really bear discussion...