Make the Romani even more realistic - Heavy infantry from Roma only.

[Dayve]

I did this in RTR back when i still played it before EB was released but could never quite get it right - I'm sure you brainboxes can make it work properly though.

Make the city of Roma a hidden resource, then give the early Roman heavy infantry the "hidden_recsource_Roma" thing (i forget if that's actually it since it was a while ago since i did any text file editing) so that they can be recruited only in Roma... Then make the population of Roma a little higher and also the population growth a little higher, and give early hastati, principes and triarii a 0 recruitment time, which would reflect Romes ability to raise huge armies quickly even after being dealt massive defeats, but will not make it unbalanced since the units are expensive and money is tight...

Then you would have to add a script to undo this later on as Rome realistically started recruiting their heavy infantry from other cities close by... If all this is possible i don't know but i think it's a decent idea and would make the Romani even more realistic and enjoyable. (If that's possible!)

[QwertyMIDX]

By 272 the Romans were already recruiting troops from its allies that fought in the roman manner and the Ager Romanus had already extended to cover lots of land in central Italy. Hence those intial provinces being able to train roman troops.

[cunctator]

Something like that is easily possible, but besides that 0 recruitment time would screw up the whole system it would not be entirely correct.

The early roman units are already limited to their historic recruitment area. At this time they did not all come from Roma itself, but also from colonies founded during the previous century and other towns with citizen rights. Also the roman units represent the troops of italian socii too, that fought in a very similiar way than the romans.

In 0.8 the recruitment area for polybian units will be enlarged to all homeland gov. provinces to represent the foundation of new colonies and recruitment from those and make roman recruitment less static the now.

[Dayve]

Then i must apologise for not doing some research before posting that! I saw a thread saying about how Rome only recruited their proper heavy infantry from Rome early in the republic and i thought they didn't start recruiting them from other cities until the first reforms where Rorari and Accensi were scrapped.

[Scott]

0 turn recurment for the triaii?I know the Roman Legionaries had 6 months of training.I'am not sure about the befroe the Marius refroms but it probally took a few months to train them

[Dayve]

True, but why only train 80 men to be hastati in one month? Wouldn't Rome or wherever they trained them have the facilities to train hundreds if not thousands?

[O'ETAIPOS]

You may think like this - 80 men in game = 800 real soliders. Lots of game limit things may be solved this way

[Chester]

6 months of training then 20 years of war and more training. Worst job ever.

[Ludens]

0 turn recurment for the triaii?I know the Roman Legionaries had 6 months of training.I'am not sure about the befroe the Marius refroms but it probally took a few months to train them

Imperial legionaries received a standard training, but the pre-Marian armies (and to a certain extent the armies of the late republic also) were ad-hoc things that were trained on campaign. From that point of view a 0-turn recruitment is correct. However, since it did took some time for an army to reach full-combat proficiency I guess a recruitment delay is reasonable option. Certainly, Triarii would not need much training: they were already the most experienced troops of the legion.

[QwertyMIDX]

The RTW recruitment system just isn't designed in a way that would allow us to present proper ancient armies, it's a real bummer but that's just the way it is.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I thought an Imperial Legionary had four months basic training. Regardless, the early Legions, and other forces in other states weren't totally untrained rabble. They did recieve some basic training on how to follow orders and use a sword without stabbing the guy next to them. Added to which it would take time to form up a force, find commanders, organise supplies etc so 0 training time seams a bit off to me, to say the least.

[QwertyMIDX]

The problem is that we can't really show the way in which ancient armies called up their men and so forth, 0 turn training ignores the complex conditions that allow for call ups.

[GodEmperorLeto]

The RTW recruitment system just isn't designed in a way that would allow us to present proper ancient armies, it's a real bummer but that's just the way it is.

You are absolutely correct. The system of citizen-militia has been the subject of many a scholarly work. However, it would be really difficult to program a system to send all your hastati, triarii, and princepes back to their fields after campaign, just to call them up immediately when Carthage or Epirus gets rowdy.

Besides, the citizen-militia system began to break down as a result of the foreign (i.e. outside Italy) wars that took place in the late 3rd/early 2nd century BC, followed by social and political turmoil, culminating in Mommsen/Syme/Scullard's "Roman Revolution" from the killing of Gracchus to the rise of Augustus. Hence, a century and a half of political upheaval, and the need for Marius' military reforms.

Alright, now I'm done proving to everyone I'm a windbag. Point is, it is damn near impossible in the Rome: Total War system to accurately simulate the precise conditions and characteristics of the Camillan and Polybian military, nor their political, social, and economic ramifications. So, we should be content with what we have. Besides, EB rocks as it is. I don't want to tempt fate any further. Or give the modders a heart attack.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Marius' reforms were really a result of political failings at home and the break down of the class system than anything else. Actually the more you think about it the less Earth shattering the reform was, yes it was a big thing but not as big as some would have you believe, after all, they were still only a militia really.

Regardless, 1 turn recruitment is probably the best way to go for early Roman units.

You can't get much better than that, Unless EB want to have 12 turns a year.

[nikolai1962]

You are absolutely correct. The system of citizen-militia has been the subject of many a scholarly work. However, it would be really difficult to program a system to send all your hastati, triarii, and princepes back to their fields after campaign, just to call them up immediately when Carthage or Epirus gets rowdy.

I think the way to simulate citizen-militia armies is low-cost, 0-turn units with a very high upkeep (to simulate the economic disruption) but that just leads to the other problem which is how the AI would react. This system would mean players had to raise and disband units as needed. The AI doesn't disband though so they'd bankrupt themselves in the first few turns. Shame imo as I'd quite like that system.

[Runyan99]

Alright, now I'm done proving to everyone I'm a windbag. Point is, it is damn near impossible in the Rome: Total War system to accurately simulate the precise conditions and characteristics of the Camillan and Polybian military, nor their political, social, and economic ramifications. So, we should be content with what we have. Besides, EB rocks as it is. I don't want to tempt fate any further. Or give the modders a heart attack.

I'm familiar with Polybius, but when early Roman armies are referred to as Camillan, what author is that a reference to?

[Ludens]

I'm familiar with Polybius, but when early Roman armies are referred to as Camillan, what author is that a reference to?

In the Roman preview it says that it refers to the Roman statesman Marvs Fvrivs Camillivs who is credited with the introduction of the manipular system.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well the first formal militia is assigned to Rome's 5th, or 6th, I can't remember. Servius Tullius and is reffered to as the Etrusco-Servian, at this point the populace were divided in six classes, including cavalry and formed a Greek Phalanx.

Later Camillus reformed the Legions, reputedly replacing the thin bronze helmets with iron ones and perhaps removing the Greek Aspis from service, though EB retains it. He also introducted the three line maniple system and seems to actually have removed the "levy" by making the two poorest classes into skirmishers. This is the point at which the Romans began moving away from the Greek militia system towards something different. The changes are perhaps the result of battle with the Samnites who fought in an irregular manner, compared to the Etruscan cities who had been Rome's previous enemies.

By the time of Polybius the system had been further refined, most likely partly due to increasing wealth and technology opening up better equipment. The evolution from Camilian to Polybian was probably gradual and Polybius certainly had no direct effect on the system, he merely reports it.

[orwell]

does the recruitment time have to be defined in whole numbers? If for some reason instead of having 80=800, could you have a .2 recruiment time so that you could stack up 5 units and have them all next turn, providing a balanced limit between 0 recruitment time and a full turn. Or do I need to back to reading the modding guides.