Social Justice... Does it really mean the lazy never have to work again?

[Kanamori]

A class system is a bad idea, people should be able to do what they are best at and/or work where they are most needed. A class system allows for upper class kids to be utterly uncapable for the jobs they are supposed to do (just look at all the criticism aimed at the royals).

I'm sorry, I'm being nitpicky, but the upper class doesn't work. They ride horses around, buy llamas to trim their lawns, travel around, buy obscure things, and entertain guests. There's never been a more useless bunch, they're darn proud of it, and they rub in the rest of our faces (well in America the best chance you have of seeing them is to head to their summer home resorts in Maine, because they keep themselves secreted away so that Americans can think that they can all move up the ladder ). And don't get me started on how they've mass produced all the crappy things, put preservatives in them, and got people to think designer clothes are somehow cool. Never has there been more uncomfortable cotton in the world, and still people buy the crap because of name brands.

[rory_20_uk]

Whilst there are many from the upper class that your diatribe describes extremely well Kanamori, others have come from this to be the greatest statesmen in both the UK and America.

Funny how you can be "nitpicky" and then come out with such a broad sweeping howler!

[doc_bean]

The downside to a class system is that potential is not reached,. True, but the same can be said now. As a rule of thumb it is still hard to jump 2 social classes in a generation.

But there isn't much difference between the classes anymore, wealth is no longer such an important measure of class, like I said, many of the 'lower' class jobs get paid the most. Class is more about what you do in your free time, what magazines and papers you read, etc.

I think that broad sorting can start at 14. At that age many could go and become apprentices at skilled manual vocations. By the time the are 16 they'd be amazing mechanics, not with a certificate stating they are rubbish at French. Of course they are going to be people who don't fit the mould. We currently seem to need to retrain masses of people in the basics even with the long education system. I feel this method would require far less.

The problem is, pure mechanics aren't in such high demand anymore, since electronics play such an important role in today's machinery. Flexibility through all layers of society is need in the modern world, I'm not sure what the best way to provide it is though. Certainly, the 'level' of education needs to be higher.

People getting additional education, after hours, should be supported more imho. Same with people re-schooling to find different employment. And we need to get rid of the stigma of 'lower class'. Unfortunately, these are idle dreams.

[Kanamori]

Whilst there are many from the upper class that your diatribe describes extremely well Kanamori, others have come from this to be the greatest statesmen in both the UK and America.

Politics is just the eccentricty they chose to immerse themselves in. Watch their habits, and they're actions from ordinary politicians, and you will see that it is merely an extension of their class. The enjoy causing an uproar or controversy. Look at Charles. Then he walks around in horse manure w/ bright green rainboots.

[doc_bean]

I'm sorry, I'm being nitpicky, but the upper class doesn't work. They ride horses around, buy llamas to trim their lawns, travel around, buy obscure things, and entertain guests. There's never been a more useless bunch, they're darn proud of it, and they rub in the rest of our faces (well in America the best chance you have of seeing them is to head to their summer home resorts in Maine, because they keep themselves secreted away so that Americans can think that they can all move up the ladder ). And don't get me started on how they've mass produced all the crappy things, put preservatives in them, and got people to think designer clothes are somehow cool. Never has there been more uncomfortable cotton in the world, and still people buy the crap because of name brands.

Well, like I said, a class system is a bad idea

And while designer clothes and McMeals are not a good thing, nobody is forcing the masses to buy them (yet).

To get back on topic a bit, that's part of what social justice is, the upper class gets a whole lot of benefits for being born to the right people, without deserving it. Social justice is making sure the lower classes get what they need to live a decent, human-wordy live, and making sure (as much as it is possible) they get their chance in life, and can live up to their potential.

[Soulforged]

Welfare pays more. EI is a percentage (60%) of your former wage/salary. And only lasts for about 8 months.

I see...Then this thread is only concentrated in welfare?

[Duke Malcolm]

Well, like I said, a class system is a bad idea

And while designer clothes and McMeals are not a good thing, nobody is forcing the masses to buy them (yet).

To get back on topic a bit, that's part of what social justice is, the upper class gets a whole lot of benefits for being born to the right people, without deserving it. Social justice is making sure the lower classes get what they need to live a decent, human-wordy live, and making sure (as much as it is possible) they get their chance in life, and can live up to their potential.

Hardly. The upper-class only get benefits becauset they have worked for those benefits. They invest in their children, send them to a better school, a public school, thence University. Admittedly, there is a problem with University fees, something that should be tackled by increasing the number of people available for bursaries and such, not showering the poor with money. If you give a lower-class person £10000 much of it would generally become disposable income : if you give a middle-class person £10000 much of it would generally be put aside for better things - university and school and such : If you give an upper-class person £10000 much of it would generally be invested in some way.

Edit:
Economically, a sensible person does not try to eliminate the classes through redistribution of the wealth -- each person would use the money in such a way that would rebuild the classes.
A sensible person does try and increase social mobility through the classes -- more University grants as long as admission requirements are equal for all; more public school grants; improving school funding instead of giving less well-off children money through the EMA...

[Kanamori]

Hardly. The upper-class only get benefits becauset they have worked for those benefits. They invest in their children, send them to a better school, a public school, thence University.

Their ancestors worked for the benefits. Going to university is just what they do; it is tradition, and it is social with their class. A family that still has to work is in the lower rungs of the upper class, and they are there because of their sensible tastes and the respectability of their family, which is again nothing more than their ancestors and their upbringing. Once you have a fortune, it isn't hard to be a money lender, or just to have your money loaned out by some other guy you hired to do the work for you. But if we are to continue this subsection, we ought to form another thread so as not to close and clutter this one.

[Soulforged]

I see...Then this thread is only concentrated in welfare?

Only correcting myself. Now I understand what that "EI" meant. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the money that's offered as a compensation and inversion to those who're unemployed and looking for a job.

[doc_bean]

Hardly. The upper-class only get benefits becauset they have worked for those benefits. They invest in their children, send them to a better school, a public school, thence University.

None of which is the children's doing, the ones who eventually will reap the benefits.

If you give a lower-class person £10000 much of it would generally become disposable income : if you give a middle-class person £10000 much of it would generally be put aside for better things - university and school and such : If you give an upper-class person £10000 much of it would generally be invested in some way.

That's because the lower class can actually use (even needs) the money, whilst for the middle class it's a nice extra and for the upper class, it doesn't really matter.

In my experience, the so called middle class is actually more wasteful than the so-called middle class, but then, I think it might be time to start a thread about social classes...

[yesdachi]

Another question?In US have you guys frozen the minimum wage´s? Dont you have index raises in those to follow inflation?

Did anyone see the episode of 30 days where he and his girlfriend were to get jobs that paid minimum wage and live on it for 30 day? Neither could even find jobs that paid that low. There are not that many minimum wage jobs out there especially if you work there for some time, raises are often given after 6 months and benefits and vacation are also offered around that time. If you work at a restaurant and do a decent job you can even expect to get a small promotion in 6 months. I know that some restaurants even offer management trainee programs. I have a friend that works at a temp place and they hardly ever have jobs available that only pay minimum wage, they usually pay several dollars more for even the lame entry level stuff. If they raise the minimum wage I am not sure it would even affect many companies as it doesn’t seem they pay many people it anyway. A company that only pays minimum wage is either real cheep or offer a really crappy job, either way I would seek other employment.

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Hey Soulforged, the difference between unemployment and welfare is that warfare is paid by the state to people that are in “need” and unemployment is paid by the former after say a layoff or downsizing (if your fired you are not eligible for unemployment) employer and is only offered for a limited time based on the amount of time you worked for that employer. I was downsized once (many years ago) and was allowed up to 52 weeks of unemployment (I only used about a month of it). I have never been on welfare and cannot comment much further on that matter other that the fact that it has become more of a system that offers assistance rather than the way the system was back in the 70’s and 80’s where it really created dependency.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If they raise the minimum wage I am not sure it would even affect many companies as it doesn’t seem they pay many people it anyway

It would only affect small buissnesses. Those that could least afford it. It would but people out of work as many of these would have to close. Its hard enough for them to compete already.

Neither could even find jobs that paid that low. There are not that many minimum wage jobs out there especially if you work there for some time

You are not meant to be able to survive on a minium salary job. Its entry level. As you said I dont think anyone here works for the minimum wage. You start at 8 dollars an hour at Micky Ds here. Another thing 5.65 is a lot more in say Arkansas than it is here in New York.

[Soulforged]

Hey Soulforged, the difference between unemployment and welfare is that warfare is paid by the state to people that are in “need” and unemployment is paid by the former after say a layoff or downsizing (if your fired you are not eligible for unemployment) employer and is only offered for a limited time based on the amount of time you worked for that employer. I was downsized once (many years ago) and was allowed up to 52 weeks of unemployment (I only used about a month of it). I have never been on welfare and cannot comment much further on that matter other that the fact that it has become more of a system that offers assistance rather than the way the system was back in the 70’s and 80’s where it really created dependency.

Thanks yesdachi , but as I didn't know the exact expression to tell it in english I made a mistake, I've corrected that mistake in my last post. I know of what you're talking about, but I'm talking about another thing, read my post above.