Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
Strawman argument, Tribesman.
Nope , someone bought it up , so ...
b) discuss the arguments/ideas brought forward by other patrons


How about you come back to where the focus of the topic is? Are people entitled to receive something for nothing?
How about a better focus on the topic .
How can the state not provide welfare for those of its citizens that need it ?
Charity ? Far too hit and miss , and no less safe from the abuse , outright theft , mismangement , misdirection and wastefulness than government charity is , and that is what welfare is , government charity .
The difference is that everyone who earns or spends contributes when it is government charity .
So you have a focus on some people who get benefits for doing nothing , yeah its terrible , such a scandal , outrageous , shocking .
How are they any different to the politician who claims expenses for nothing , the executive who does a dodgy deal under the table , the ordinary worker who fiddles his tax return , the businessmen who declares himself bankrupt again and again , the octogenarian who transfers all their assets to avoid death tax ?
All cost far more than welfare cheats , and they are all getting something for nothing .
Well, like Ser Clegnane said, this isn't exactly where I was headed with this thread. There's a certain prevailant view of Social Justice that it means that everyone should be able to be taken care of by the government whether they want to work or not. I disagree with that view. I believe we do owe it to people to provide them with basic necessities, but we also owe it to them to make them productive for it...

Now, off to your new obfuscation....
-A politician claims expenses because you and I elected him and his cohorts and they passed laws saying they could. When we get tired of that, we vote in people that claim they'll change the system (such as John McCain).
-Executive doing dodgy deals under the table either cost their own companies money or somebody elses, not the taxpayer.
-The business man who declares himself bankrupt should lose all his assets (the Florida bankruptcy rules need to be modified)
-The man cheating on his tax returns is a felon and if caught, will be treated as such.
-The octogenarian transferring their assets is avoiding being taxed twice on the same money. Death taxes are blatantly unfair and in the US, unconstitutional. The fact that they remain only goes to show you that even courts are bed by the tax slop-bucket.

If your point is to silence the question by raising alternative unfair abuses, please don't. Rather, go start your own thread, and watch me join with you and rail about the US Agricultural policy (paying farmers not to grow crops) and corporate welfare system, but that's hardly relevant to this thread.