Social Justice... Does it really mean the lazy never have to work again?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think humanity should strive to achieve, to push the boundries of excellence. I find this attitude of helping all regardless cause is likely to cause society to stagnate.

There is of course, the purely pragmatic reason for the state (via your taxes) to support the unemployed and marginalised (which I'm surprised hasn't come up so far).

Create a disenfranchised underclass and they turn to crime. All those who have no stake in society rapidly take out their anger on those who do by 'redistributing wealth' themselves. Then you have to spend a great deal of money combatting the crime wave. Fine upstanding citizens have to take refuge behind walled suburbs with guns.

Make a big enough underclass and they take everything you have through revolution, 'cause you can no longer jail or kill all of them. That gets real expensive.

But of course, that could never happen.

[rory_20_uk]

The current system isn't democracy. If a law is passed then the majority of people in power want it to.

I agree that masses with nothing to do is a bad thing. But the problem there is idle hands more than anything else.

Social class 4/5 used to be called the "salt of the earth". Why that changed to "the scum of the earth" is multifactorial of course.

IMO some are the goverment building hope that all avenues are available to everyone, and the consequent disillusionment that failure brings. Esentially the complete destruction of the class system was a bad idea.
Lack of blue collar jobs. Manufacturing provides a feeling of achievement not present in many low office jobs and their ilk.

Education goes on for too long for no results. Many should stop at 14, some at 16 with only 40% doing a levels and about 10% doing degrees. The others learn useful skills that there is a definite benefit of. If you're not academic at 12 the next 4 (or now 8) years are wasted. Be a plumber - they earn more than I do!
Schools and parents are scared to make children disciplined. Then the state wades in with ASBOs when it's far too late.

[doc_bean]

IMO some are the goverment building hope that all avenues are available to everyone, and the consequent disillusionment that failure brings. Esentially the complete destruction of the class system was a bad idea.

A class system is a bad idea, people should be able to do what they are best at and/or work where they are most needed. A class system allows for upper class kids to be utterly uncapable for the jobs they are supposed to do (just look at all the criticism aimed at the royals). It also means the underclass people won't live up to their potential.

Plus, it adds tension to society, which leads to more violence and crime, and a whole lot of unpleasantness.

Lack of blue collar jobs. Manufacturing provides a feeling of achievement not present in many low office jobs and their ilk.

I've never done a more dull and unfullfilling job than administrative work (filing for an accountant, some spreadsheet work). But it's really a mentalitiy problem with 'the masses'. When I told my girlfriend's little brother of 10 that he should become a plumber because they make the most money, he answered 'no, let some Lithouanian do that'. Manual labour is still associated with an 'underclass', even if those people tend to be richer than the so-called middle class. It's elitism and (borderline) racism.

But manufacturing jobs these days do look like hell, doing the same exact thing each few minutes. There is a point to automation there. Part of the problem (imo) is that society has become too productive, and we need a way to give those people 'not really needed' something to do. It's no surprise that the service industry has become so big in the lst few generations.

Education goes on for too long for no results. Many should stop at 14, some at 16

14 is too young to work imho, people are still too immature at that age to know what they want out of life. It isn't always obvious to judge their potential that early either. Some people who are top of their class (chemical engineering) where told they shouldn't do the hardest 'path' in High School, a lot of people who do really well at uni where just average HS students.

with only 40% doing a levels and about 10% doing degrees.

That's just crazy, modern western economy is mostly built around high tech jobs. What level of education people will persue should depend on the economic structure and needs of their region, and on their own personal interest.

The others learn useful skills that there is a definite benefit of. If you're not academic at 12 the next 4 (or now 8) years are wasted.

Like I said before, that's just not true. I also know quite a few people who were 'genius' at age 12 and totally failed in higher education. Not everyone's personal evolution can be predicted.

Be a plumber - they earn more than I do!

Err.. you don't work do you ?

Schools and parents are scared to make children disciplined. Then the state wades in with ASBOs when it's far too late.

If schools discipline the children the parents complain. But that's another discussion.

[rory_20_uk]

The downside to a class system is that potential is not reached,. True, but the same can be said now. As a rule of thumb it is still hard to jump 2 social classes in a generation.

The Luddites were the first to realise that machines negated the need for many people in an economy.
The french aristocracy had the same problem in that although they were the "top", merchants still earned more than they did.

Decent A levels (not the shite we've got in the UK at the moment should allow people to perform high tech jobs. Then there are a limited few who need more which is offered by pure universities.

If you think 10% is too low, then sandwich degrees could be for the other 30% who will be accredited after 5 or so years on the job. Like a modern day apprenticeship.

I think that broad sorting can start at 14. At that age many could go and become apprentices at skilled manual vocations. By the time the are 16 they'd be amazing mechanics, not with a certificate stating they are rubbish at French. Of course they are going to be people who don't fit the mould. We currently seem to need to retrain masses of people in the basics even with the long education system. I feel this method would require far less.

No, I don't currently work - a very sore point that the Powers That Be are dragging their feet to correct (of course the paperwork should have been done over 2 months ago - but it just isn't...)

Concerning parent's complaining, one lecturer at a uni said that they have to give students a 2:1, else the parents complain! I hope that this only is the case at the worst universities.

[doc_bean]

The downside to a class system is that potential is not reached,. True, but the same can be said now. As a rule of thumb it is still hard to jump 2 social classes in a generation.

But there isn't much difference between the classes anymore, wealth is no longer such an important measure of class, like I said, many of the 'lower' class jobs get paid the most. Class is more about what you do in your free time, what magazines and papers you read, etc.

I think that broad sorting can start at 14. At that age many could go and become apprentices at skilled manual vocations. By the time the are 16 they'd be amazing mechanics, not with a certificate stating they are rubbish at French. Of course they are going to be people who don't fit the mould. We currently seem to need to retrain masses of people in the basics even with the long education system. I feel this method would require far less.

The problem is, pure mechanics aren't in such high demand anymore, since electronics play such an important role in today's machinery. Flexibility through all layers of society is need in the modern world, I'm not sure what the best way to provide it is though. Certainly, the 'level' of education needs to be higher.

People getting additional education, after hours, should be supported more imho. Same with people re-schooling to find different employment. And we need to get rid of the stigma of 'lower class'. Unfortunately, these are idle dreams.

[Kanamori]

A class system is a bad idea, people should be able to do what they are best at and/or work where they are most needed. A class system allows for upper class kids to be utterly uncapable for the jobs they are supposed to do (just look at all the criticism aimed at the royals).

I'm sorry, I'm being nitpicky, but the upper class doesn't work. They ride horses around, buy llamas to trim their lawns, travel around, buy obscure things, and entertain guests. There's never been a more useless bunch, they're darn proud of it, and they rub in the rest of our faces (well in America the best chance you have of seeing them is to head to their summer home resorts in Maine, because they keep themselves secreted away so that Americans can think that they can all move up the ladder ). And don't get me started on how they've mass produced all the crappy things, put preservatives in them, and got people to think designer clothes are somehow cool. Never has there been more uncomfortable cotton in the world, and still people buy the crap because of name brands.

[rory_20_uk]

Whilst there are many from the upper class that your diatribe describes extremely well Kanamori, others have come from this to be the greatest statesmen in both the UK and America.

Funny how you can be "nitpicky" and then come out with such a broad sweeping howler!

[Kanamori]

Whilst there are many from the upper class that your diatribe describes extremely well Kanamori, others have come from this to be the greatest statesmen in both the UK and America.

Politics is just the eccentricty they chose to immerse themselves in. Watch their habits, and they're actions from ordinary politicians, and you will see that it is merely an extension of their class. The enjoy causing an uproar or controversy. Look at Charles. Then he walks around in horse manure w/ bright green rainboots.

[doc_bean]

I'm sorry, I'm being nitpicky, but the upper class doesn't work. They ride horses around, buy llamas to trim their lawns, travel around, buy obscure things, and entertain guests. There's never been a more useless bunch, they're darn proud of it, and they rub in the rest of our faces (well in America the best chance you have of seeing them is to head to their summer home resorts in Maine, because they keep themselves secreted away so that Americans can think that they can all move up the ladder ). And don't get me started on how they've mass produced all the crappy things, put preservatives in them, and got people to think designer clothes are somehow cool. Never has there been more uncomfortable cotton in the world, and still people buy the crap because of name brands.

Well, like I said, a class system is a bad idea

And while designer clothes and McMeals are not a good thing, nobody is forcing the masses to buy them (yet).

To get back on topic a bit, that's part of what social justice is, the upper class gets a whole lot of benefits for being born to the right people, without deserving it. Social justice is making sure the lower classes get what they need to live a decent, human-wordy live, and making sure (as much as it is possible) they get their chance in life, and can live up to their potential.

[Duke Malcolm]

Well, like I said, a class system is a bad idea

And while designer clothes and McMeals are not a good thing, nobody is forcing the masses to buy them (yet).

To get back on topic a bit, that's part of what social justice is, the upper class gets a whole lot of benefits for being born to the right people, without deserving it. Social justice is making sure the lower classes get what they need to live a decent, human-wordy live, and making sure (as much as it is possible) they get their chance in life, and can live up to their potential.

Hardly. The upper-class only get benefits becauset they have worked for those benefits. They invest in their children, send them to a better school, a public school, thence University. Admittedly, there is a problem with University fees, something that should be tackled by increasing the number of people available for bursaries and such, not showering the poor with money. If you give a lower-class person £10000 much of it would generally become disposable income : if you give a middle-class person £10000 much of it would generally be put aside for better things - university and school and such : If you give an upper-class person £10000 much of it would generally be invested in some way.

Edit:
Economically, a sensible person does not try to eliminate the classes through redistribution of the wealth -- each person would use the money in such a way that would rebuild the classes.
A sensible person does try and increase social mobility through the classes -- more University grants as long as admission requirements are equal for all; more public school grants; improving school funding instead of giving less well-off children money through the EMA...

[Kanamori]

Hardly. The upper-class only get benefits becauset they have worked for those benefits. They invest in their children, send them to a better school, a public school, thence University.

Their ancestors worked for the benefits. Going to university is just what they do; it is tradition, and it is social with their class. A family that still has to work is in the lower rungs of the upper class, and they are there because of their sensible tastes and the respectability of their family, which is again nothing more than their ancestors and their upbringing. Once you have a fortune, it isn't hard to be a money lender, or just to have your money loaned out by some other guy you hired to do the work for you. But if we are to continue this subsection, we ought to form another thread so as not to close and clutter this one.

[doc_bean]

Hardly. The upper-class only get benefits becauset they have worked for those benefits. They invest in their children, send them to a better school, a public school, thence University.

None of which is the children's doing, the ones who eventually will reap the benefits.

If you give a lower-class person £10000 much of it would generally become disposable income : if you give a middle-class person £10000 much of it would generally be put aside for better things - university and school and such : If you give an upper-class person £10000 much of it would generally be invested in some way.

That's because the lower class can actually use (even needs) the money, whilst for the middle class it's a nice extra and for the upper class, it doesn't really matter.

In my experience, the so called middle class is actually more wasteful than the so-called middle class, but then, I think it might be time to start a thread about social classes...