How bad does it have to get?

[yesdachi]

Well, what there was was a rank police state. What there is now is borderline anarchy, civil war, and warlords.

I'd say the improvement is marginal.

The important point, however, is that it didn't have to turn out that way. Thanks to the bungling of Bush and the Boys it did. Anyway, the exact only thing they can do that is even remotely ethical is to stick in and fix the mess they made, since the alternatives are worse. Plus it's generally considered proper to clean after yourself.

Wanting to get the UN and the "will of the world" involved strikes me as downright perverse, given that both were against the invasion in the first place and had their warnings not only ignored but a lot of rude insults thrown their way...

I agree with most of what you say, my only additional comment would be that the improvement is currently marginal but has the potential to be significant if we clean up after ourselves.

[rory_20_uk]

I agree that the UN was against the current situation occurring. But the UN has to deal with things as they are now, not sulk like a toddler. I agree that most of the blame can easily be placed on Bush.

I agree that this mess is mainly due to extremely poor planning.

I agree that it would be nice if the current forces were able to correct matters, but I feel that their inability to treat the locals as human, complete unawareness of the culture or almost any other facet of the local population is going to ensure that they alienate more, not less. Bombs from the air, mass arrests, a "shoot first and why question as we don't speak the language" again breeds hatred rather than hope.

The UN might have a chance at drawing something of a line under the past unmitigated failures. More troops and police from Islamic countries would again help dilute the "then and us" mentality that is currently in place.

I still feel that the hope for a united country is limited, especially as more and more wish for there to be at least 2, if not 3. And why should the West stop them? Havn't we intefered enough?

[Fragony]

I agree with most of what you say, my only additional comment would be that the improvement is currently marginal but has the potential to be significant if we clean up after ourselves.

I agree. It is the way it is, and the arabs are too busy building more palaces to celebrate the fact they were born. So it was a mistake to invade, I still don't believe it was mind you, but it aren't the allied forces that are currently beheading just about anything that has a neck to set a blade on. If Saddam was good at keeping things together then it was only a matter of time before these necrophiles did their sick thing anyway.

[LeftEyeNine]

Anybody knows if those two victims were performing in times of Saddam as well ?

[Devastatin Dave]

Anybody knows if those two victims were performing in times of Saddam as well ?

My nipples thank you.

[LeftEyeNine]

Anybody knows if those two victims were performing in times of Saddam as well ?

I should add I assumed them to while making my previous posts.. So anyone ?

[Avicenna]

How is bringing in the guns, killing civilians, attracting radicals, toppling the government, leaving the state in anarchy and chaos not causing this situation?

[Watchman]

I agree. It is the way it is, and the arabs are too busy building more palaces to celebrate the fact they were born. So it was a mistake to invade, I still don't believe it was mind you, but it aren't the allied forces that are currently beheading just about anything that has a neck to set a blade on. If Saddam was good at keeping things together then it was only a matter of time before these necrophiles did their sick thing anyway.

Please don't be tendentiously dumb, it's unsightly. Under Saddam many of the nice folks who now chop heads off weren't even in the country (they came later specifically to mess with the Americans and their efforts), and even those who were weren't doing it (since Saddam's goons would have taken them in for disturbing the peace, insurrection, or whatever charges they'd now have bothered thinking up - these kinds of systems tend not be overly pedantic about the details).

Police states are kind of funny in that they're often quite jealous about being the only ones allowed to brutalize and terrorize their populace. They don't seem to like the competition or something. Could also be that letting some wonks run around unchecked would kinda kill their credibility, as they usually try to make a point of claiming they're trying to protect the common folks, honest.

That overall they tend to be the biggest threat to the common folks tends to be generally realized by everyone involved, but obviously not said out loud (without getting visits from the secret police, anyway).