Poor Old Turks

[bamff]

Seems to me that no matter what else is going on in MTW (Vanilla), that the Turks are almost invariably the first AI faction to fall.

I suppose that the starting position isn't the easiest, but still, I thought AI could sort it...

My current campaign (As Italy) is the longest that I have seen the Turks hang around...by 1130 they had taken Constantinople (which worked well, because as the Byzantines dissolved into civil war, my troops swept in through Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria). Only 10 years passed however, and the turks were gone. They have just re-emerged in 1145....be nice if they stuck around this time, just for variety.

[Csargo]

You know your right I never noticed before but they dont all I ever see is Egypt down in the Middle East.

[Barbarossa1221]

Ya turks really cant stick it for long, usually because of either Byzantines or Egypt who are fairly well off.
Turkey usually doesnt build a strong navy and its initial armies are lackluster with generals who have low loyalty.
And then the Golden Horde comes in and makes things even worse.
Ya the AI doesnt do em justice.

[Papewaio]

Which makes them one of my favorite factions to play as they are a decent challenge.

[Peasant Phill]

I have seen the Turks become the biggest power in the world on several occasions. This happens when the Egyptians ally with them and they defeat the Byz. Once they own the steppes there is no stopping them.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yes, the Byz are the main problem for the Turks. On-on-one, the Byz always seem to defeat the Turks. But if any third power manages to break Byzantium the Turks can be surprisingly good at establishing themselves as the major eastern power in their place.

I love to play them, challenging starting position, fantastic unit roster.

[bamff]

Having seen them re-emerge in this current game, I've done a little bit to help them hang around....with my Italians pushing the Byzantines back out of Constantinople, Nicea, & Trebizond (mind you that also helped me a little too - hehehe!). Hopefully I have given the Turks a bit of breathing space to help them get a start....

I also hope it doesn't come back to bite me big time!

[Seyfullah]

When i played with the Turks, my first game ever, units that i've trained seemed to have over 7 loyalty and every now and then i had unit leaders with high enough acumen. Almost half of the AHC trained in armenia came with a star so i dont know why Turks leave the game early. I noticed this when i played the European factions. Historically, they took down the Byzantines so I dont know wats the problem. Having the Turks in the middle east is interesting for my gameplay at least.

[Martok]

When i played with the Turks, my first game ever, units that i've trained seemed to have over 7 loyalty and every now and then i had unit leaders with high enough acumen. Almost half of the AHC trained in armenia came with a star so i dont know why Turks leave the game early. I noticed this when i played the European factions. Historically, they took down the Byzantines so I dont know wats the problem. Having the Turks in the middle east is interesting for my gameplay at least.

I strongly suspect the Byz and Eggies are programmed so that there's a 95% chance (or better) they'll both go after the Turks early on before they become a threat. (Goodness knows that when *I'm* the Eggies or the Byz, the Seljuks usually die a very quick death. ) It's possible I'm wrong, of course; but I've seen it happen so consistently in the 3+ years I've been playing MTW, that I just can't believe those 2 factions "randomly" decide to wipe out the Turks in almost every single game. I can honestly count on just my two hands the number of times I've seen the poor bastards actually make it to the High Era....

[bamff]

Yeah - part of the reason I decided to "nurse" them through in my current game is just for the curiousity of never having seen how they fare later on...

It also inspires me to try the Turks on in my next game perhaps....

[bamff]

Well there you go, nursed the Turks through, kept the Eggies and Byz off their backs, and what happens?

They attack me!

So I am forced to wipe them out after getting them all the way through to 1255....bugger!

[LadyAnn]

Turks are fun to play with :)

Annie

[bamff]

Hey Annie, welcome to the Org!

You're not the first to mention that the Turks are fun to play - I really will have to give them a go!

[vonsch]

Turks have horse archers too, right? When I get around to finishing my campaign as the Portugee (or decide I'm just into the long grind after the dicey interesting parts are done), I may have to try them. I don't remember trying them so far. I do remember kicking them around as Egypt though. I pushed them back into one province and wanted to turn my attention to the Bizzies and they would NOT make peace. Silly, obstinate DEAD Turks.

[Alexios]

I'm playing MTW (Vanilla) and the year is 1238 and the Turks are still hanging in there. However, I think they're about to become extinct at the hands of The GH. I hope not though, because I was hoping the GH would balance the power a little bit by ignoring the Turks while kicking some serious Byzantine butt.

Anyway, in most of the MTW campaigns I play in Early, it seems the Aragonians are the first to go. They usually get swallowed-up pretty fast by the French or Spanish.

[bamff]

Agreed Alexios, they also traditionally disappear pretty early on as well...In games I have played, the Aragonese generally seem to suddenly get weirdly aggressive with the English, French, or Spaniards, and then suffer the consequences.....as you do....as I've said in another thread, I'd love to see the AI get more sensible about this - when you are small you need to make alliances, NOT launch suicidal invasions of large neighbours!

[vonsch]

I'd love to see the AI get more sensible about this - when you are small you need to make alliances, NOT launch suicidal invasions of large neighbours!

But, but... the only way to start with some smaller factions is exactly that! In my Portugee campaign I had to go straight for Spain or risk being stifled by them or the Almohads.

I suppose the AI can't hald the delicate juggling act though. We human player try to pick ONE enemy at a time in that situation, and the AI tends to pick 3 of 3. Two alliances and an invasion is the way to go (if you can pull it off).

[bamff]

Okay, you have a point Vonsch - sometimes the only way is to attack....but the AI seems to use this as the universal approach...I suppose I'm just saying that the whole diplomacy area is one I'd like to see the programmers work on a little more....

[vonsch]

I agree about the diplomacy. It's so much more interesting in RTW compared to MTW... yet, it's disappointly weak in play. It seems it should not be too hard to code some logic, and add this into the AI personalities. Some should be "if it moves attack it!" types (the Huns!). Others should be a lot more conservative, trying to make peace with everyone except those in their specific target territories.

The Turks, for example, should aim to ally with the Bizzies or the Eggs, and fight the others, never try to take on both. At least not at the starting stage. Maybe send diplomats to both and ask for alliances. If only one accepts, the other is bumped to the head of the target list. Be nice if alliances were a bit more sturdy too. Don't rule out backstabbing entirely, but give it more negative consequences whether AI faction or player.