The Nuclear question

[BigTex]

Hypothetical sutiation alert

..... If Iran was to luanch a nuke agianst the USA or an ally in the middle east would US nuclear retailation be accetpble?

It depends, if the nuke actually hit the USA shores then possibly. I would prefer we immediatly scrambled B-2's fully stocked with nukes and have them prepare to drop on Iran. But I think we should royally bitch slap them back to the dark ages first. If they were to hit us a second time, or if they started using chemical weapons also. Then we should steralize Iran, let no inch go uncovered by nukes.

[rory_20_uk]

So... one commander with a grudge causes the death of 100,000 Americans (after all the Iranian bombs would start off small).

You think America should then "bitch slap them". Killing what? 1 million, possibly more. America hasn't got the troops for another major war right at the moment without massive alterations to world priorities. So, dislocate everything to destroy an entire country, mostly innocent people?

How and who does that help?

And haeven forbid there are two scared jingoistic people in Iran. You'd then kill millions more, with who knows how many dying due to fall out, and destroying the world as we know it to boot...

The diabolical evil genius can't compete with the average person.

[solypsist]

sorry. if the u.s. gets nuked then everybody cries. i would expect massive retaliation on all involved parties, guilty or otherwise, lest any other "rogue" countries get any funny ideas.

that said, if if the u.s. does any "nuclear first strike" monkey business then this works both ways and i wouldn't cry over getting dogpiled by every capable nation who could take us out. that's real politik and it sometimes sucks to be on the losing team.

[yesdachi]

Hypothetically, if they were to attack the US with a nuke I would consider the civilians just as guilty as the decision makers of their country.

If the US were to want to make a nuclear strike against another country our leaders would have to get the people to agree (or at least the people who represent the people). Therefore we (the citizens of the US) would be as guilty as our decision makers. If we did not want the decision makers to make a nuclear strike against another country but they said they were going to anyway or just did anyway I think the US citizens would freak and run those decision makers out on their rumps. If the citizens go along with it they are as guilty as those who push the button.

That said I would have no qualms about using a nuclear retaliation. Nukes like a dog are best used as a deterrent but if no one is deterred anymore by them perhaps it is time to let the dog bite those that would trespass to show that we still have teeth and are not just a bunch of hug offering burocrates.

[Watchman]

Okay, what is it with Americans and this "get tough" machobullshit mentality anyway ? It's starting to stick out like sore thumb now.

[rory_20_uk]

So: although a president can rule with 40% people voting for him, which can drop further in his term of office (what is Bush's? 34%) everyone is to blame. Sure, no one alive chose your method of proportional representation, but ALL are to blame if the President nuked someone?

In other countries there may be even less (difficult to imagine I know) correlation between the people and the leader. And there is likely to be less checks and sophistication in firing the weapon.

You appear to be tarring all with the brush to assauge guilt when they are all reduced to cinders. "You're dead - but it's your own fault..."

[yesdachi]

So: although a president can rule with 40% people voting for him, which can drop further in his term of office (what is Bush's? 34%) everyone is to blame. Sure, no one alive chose your method of proportional representation, but ALL are to blame if the President nuked someone?

In other countries there may be even less (difficult to imagine I know) correlation between the people and the leader. And there is likely to be less checks and sophistication in firing the weapon.

You appear to be tarring all with the brush to assauge guilt when they are all reduced to cinders. "You're dead - but it's your own fault..."

Well, the president doesn’t rule, approval ratings don’t really mean much except on Election Day and IMO if our president makes a decision to nuke anyone it is as much my fault as anyone else’s.

The “Your dead but it is your fault “ comment is reasonable to me. The US has clearly posted “beware of Dog” signs and if another country comes into our yard and gets his leg chewed off it is their own fault.

[rory_20_uk]

There lies the rub. I don't think that a person merely lives in the boundries of a state should be killed by what that state does.

If all can move to somewhere else easily then that is a reasonable statement, but most people are stuck regardless of what leaders there are.

In elections, how many would say "vote for me! I'm going to nuke the USA!!"

So, even though masses of people deisgree with Bush to varying degrees (some despise the man) they are complicit although they voted against him? I'll just have to agree to disagree.

Your use of the dog forgets the fact that a nation is not a dog! There is not complete collective desicion. A better one would be: One person goes in the yard. Because of that you kill him, his family, his friends and anyone else who looks remotely like him who happens to live nearby.

[Kommodus]

Most of us are probably thinking that a nuclear retaliation would consist of tactical nuclear strikes against military installations, particularly nuclear sites. I doubt anyone here would support massive nuclear attacks against civilian targets. Of course there would still be collateral damage, but when has that ever not been the case in war?

Let's just hope it doesn't come anywhere near that.

[Duke John]

No. The death of 100,000 human beings does not justify the death of another 100,000.

[Watchman]

"Two evils does not one good make" goes one old proverb, I think. And Gandhi had that rather caustic one about "an eye for an eye will only leave the entire world blind"...

[Kanamori]

Iranians aren't really human, they're just a whole bunch of scum anyway. Why wait for them to nuke for us to just randomly nuke a bunch of their cities? I say we start now and save ourselves the trouble later. What a waste of life.

[Reenk Roink]

Hypothetically, if they were to attack the US with a nuke I would consider the civilians just as guilty as the decision makers of their country.

Ahh...

Draw parallels, my fellow Organians, to the rhetoric of Osama bin Laden and his justification against US citizens...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Draw parallels, my fellow Organians, to the rhetoric of Osama bin Laden and his justification against US citizens...

!!Crazy Tangent Alert!!

Weren't the Organians the energy beings (posing as peasant villagers) that stopped Kirk and the Federation, and the Klingons starting a massive intergalactic war over their 'backwater' planet? There's a lovely scene in the episode where Kirk and the Klingon commander both get furious with the mild Organian mayor for simply shutting off their weaponry - "How dare you interfere...We have a right to make war...Legitimate claims..."

Maybe not as off-topic as it seems...

[Kanamori]

I think Kanamori's statement was meant to be sarcastic (at least I hope so )

I am never sarcastic. I think that the whole middle east and all of yurup should be turned into glass from our nukes. Nuke 'em all, nuke 'em all, nuke 'em all.


ehem.

[yesdachi]

Ahh...

Draw parallels, my fellow Organians, to the rhetoric of Osama bin Laden and his justification against US citizens...

Its all just a matter of perspective, and who’s is more widely accepted.

[Watchman]

That degree of moral relativism starts inching on the territory of nihilism, you know.

[Upxl]

Hypothetically, if they were to attack the US with a nuke I would consider the civilians just as guilty as the decision makers of their country.

If the US were to want to make a nuclear strike against another country our leaders would have to get the people to agree (or at least the people who represent the people). Therefore we (the citizens of the US) would be as guilty as our decision makers. If we did not want the decision makers to make a nuclear strike against another country but they said they were going to anyway or just did anyway I think the US citizens would freak and run those decision makers out on their rumps. If the citizens go along with it they are as guilty as those who push the button.

That said I would have no qualms about using a nuclear retaliation. Nukes like a dog are best used as a deterrent but if no one is deterred anymore by them perhaps it is time to let the dog bite those that would trespass to show that we still have teeth and are not just a bunch of hug offering burocrates.

Honestly, that is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

[yesdachi]

Honestly, that is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

What did I write that is the dumbest thing you have ever heard? Do you think that an elected official doing the biding of the people negates the people’s responsibility of the official doings? Or that nukes are not best used as a deterrent? Or maybe you think we are a bunch of hug offering burocrates?

Seriously, if you are going to call what I have written dumb at least try and point out why. Besides, if you are convincing enough I may just change my mind.

[Joker85]

What people here are forgetting is the obvious. Future deterence. All the "moral sympathetics" here are ignoring that.

If tomomrow Iran passed a nuke to a terrorist group, or (obviously hypothetical as they won't have this capability for some time) launched a missile at an American city and once struck we did not respond with nukes, that sets a dangerous presedent for future attacks from ANYONE. Have people heard of MAD? You know, that whole idea that kept the US and Russia from going to war for 50 years. Mututally assured destruction.

If a country or leader knows he can nuke us and we won't nuke back because "we won't punish your civilians for your actions", then what deterrent is there for them and most importantly future whackos?

Sorry, but that's the way of the world. It's not an easy place to live. If it's a choice between it being nuclear open season on my countrymen (which again, it would be if anyone with nukes who wanted to knows they can nuke us and we won't nuke back because people would cry "but the civilians didn't do it!!!") or a retalition sorry but it's not up for debate with me.

The whole cold war was based on the premise of "you nuke our civilians we nuke yours" and oddly enough the fear of that prevented two nations with more combined desctructive power than all other nations of the world combined -who both hated each other bitterly- from even a conventional war.

Now, with that said I'm talking purely intentional acts. During the cold war there were numerous instances on both sides where accidental launch was narrowly averted. If a soviet sub had malfunctioned or sank in American waters and it's cargo gone off, that's different and it would be wrong to retaliate because it would serve no purpose and protect no future American lives. You can't "deter" against an accident.

But if any nation on earth, either covertly or overtly intentionally causes the detonation of a nuke against America, anything BUT a retaliation in kind would show weakness to an enemy that would no doubt view it as that, and lead to many more American lives lost.

"To pardon one offense encourages the commision of many".

[JimBob]

No. If a father came and killed your kid would you kill his kid?

Should Iran launch some form of nuclear attack on any nation I will fully support targeted attacks on the leaders who perpetrated the attacks. But I will not and cannot support attacks on people whose only crime is not revolting against their leaders.

Saying 'no' to nukes doesn't mean saying 'no' to blowing the **** out of those responsible.

[Upxl]

What did I write that is the dumbest thing you have ever heard? Do you think that an elected official doing the biding of the people negates the people’s responsibility of the official doings? Or that nukes are not best used as a deterrent? Or maybe you think we are a bunch of hug offering burocrates?

Seriously, if you are going to call what I have written dumb at least try and point out why. Besides, if you are convincing enough I may just change my mind.

My apologies,
I know you are entitled to an explanation but sometimes I lack the energy in these kind of situations.
I know you wont change your mind on the subject because reading this I see that you and I have a completely different view on the issue.
Trying to bring black and white to a more grey is very time, energy and nerve consuming.
Sometimes not even worth the trouble.

But like I said, your entitled to an explanation.


Hypothetically, if they were to attack the US with a nuke I would consider the civilians just as guilty as the decision makers of their country.

I don’t think that you can blame civilians for the decisions that the leaders of state make.
Just because you voted for a man or party doesn’t mean you can control its feelings and actions.

In 1933, the Nazis managed to achieve 44% of the votes.
So by your definition this means that 44% of the German public sought war, slave camps and extermination of ethnic minorities.


f the US were to want to make a nuclear strike against another country our leaders would have to get the people to agree (or at least the people who represent the people). Therefore we (the citizens of the US)…

Yes, let me remind you you’re speaking of the US.
Besides, I’m not so sure about this yet.

[JimBob]

And so if terrorists detonate a nuke in the USA, how would you know where it came from? Pakistan, N. Korea, stolen from Russia? Iran is hardly going to tell you, are they?

How did we find out who perpetrated 9/11, or any other terrorist attack? Why the hell else do we have intelligence agencies, other than to collect intelligence?