The Nuclear question

[yesdachi]

Hypothetically, if they were to attack the US with a nuke I would consider the civilians just as guilty as the decision makers of their country.

If the US were to want to make a nuclear strike against another country our leaders would have to get the people to agree (or at least the people who represent the people). Therefore we (the citizens of the US) would be as guilty as our decision makers. If we did not want the decision makers to make a nuclear strike against another country but they said they were going to anyway or just did anyway I think the US citizens would freak and run those decision makers out on their rumps. If the citizens go along with it they are as guilty as those who push the button.

That said I would have no qualms about using a nuclear retaliation. Nukes like a dog are best used as a deterrent but if no one is deterred anymore by them perhaps it is time to let the dog bite those that would trespass to show that we still have teeth and are not just a bunch of hug offering burocrates.

[Watchman]

Okay, what is it with Americans and this "get tough" machobullshit mentality anyway ? It's starting to stick out like sore thumb now.

[rory_20_uk]

So: although a president can rule with 40% people voting for him, which can drop further in his term of office (what is Bush's? 34%) everyone is to blame. Sure, no one alive chose your method of proportional representation, but ALL are to blame if the President nuked someone?

In other countries there may be even less (difficult to imagine I know) correlation between the people and the leader. And there is likely to be less checks and sophistication in firing the weapon.

You appear to be tarring all with the brush to assauge guilt when they are all reduced to cinders. "You're dead - but it's your own fault..."

[yesdachi]

So: although a president can rule with 40% people voting for him, which can drop further in his term of office (what is Bush's? 34%) everyone is to blame. Sure, no one alive chose your method of proportional representation, but ALL are to blame if the President nuked someone?

In other countries there may be even less (difficult to imagine I know) correlation between the people and the leader. And there is likely to be less checks and sophistication in firing the weapon.

You appear to be tarring all with the brush to assauge guilt when they are all reduced to cinders. "You're dead - but it's your own fault..."

Well, the president doesn’t rule, approval ratings don’t really mean much except on Election Day and IMO if our president makes a decision to nuke anyone it is as much my fault as anyone else’s.

The “Your dead but it is your fault “ comment is reasonable to me. The US has clearly posted “beware of Dog” signs and if another country comes into our yard and gets his leg chewed off it is their own fault.

[rory_20_uk]

There lies the rub. I don't think that a person merely lives in the boundries of a state should be killed by what that state does.

If all can move to somewhere else easily then that is a reasonable statement, but most people are stuck regardless of what leaders there are.

In elections, how many would say "vote for me! I'm going to nuke the USA!!"

So, even though masses of people deisgree with Bush to varying degrees (some despise the man) they are complicit although they voted against him? I'll just have to agree to disagree.

Your use of the dog forgets the fact that a nation is not a dog! There is not complete collective desicion. A better one would be: One person goes in the yard. Because of that you kill him, his family, his friends and anyone else who looks remotely like him who happens to live nearby.

[Kommodus]

Most of us are probably thinking that a nuclear retaliation would consist of tactical nuclear strikes against military installations, particularly nuclear sites. I doubt anyone here would support massive nuclear attacks against civilian targets. Of course there would still be collateral damage, but when has that ever not been the case in war?

Let's just hope it doesn't come anywhere near that.

[Duke John]

No. The death of 100,000 human beings does not justify the death of another 100,000.

[Watchman]

"Two evils does not one good make" goes one old proverb, I think. And Gandhi had that rather caustic one about "an eye for an eye will only leave the entire world blind"...

[Fragony]

"Two evils does not one good make" goes one old proverb, I think. And Gandhi had that rather caustic one about "an eye for an eye will only leave the entire world blind"...

Ghandi wasn't a mullah.

[Watchman]

Ghandi wasn't a mullah.

Yes, I'm quite aware of that. I imagine so is anyone who hasn't been living under an Arkansas rock for the past hundred years.
Your point ?

[Ser Clegane]

Ghandi wasn't a mullah.

Neither are most Iranians

Americans aren't really human, they're just a whole bunch of scum anyway.

I think Kanamori's statement was meant to be sarcastic (at least I hope so )

[Kanamori]

Iranians aren't really human, they're just a whole bunch of scum anyway. Why wait for them to nuke for us to just randomly nuke a bunch of their cities? I say we start now and save ourselves the trouble later. What a waste of life.

[Duke John]

Americans aren't really human, they're just a whole bunch of scum anyway. What a waste of life.

[Avicenna]

Iranians aren't really human, they're just a whole bunch of scum anyway. Why wait for them to nuke for us to just randomly nuke a bunch of their cities? I say we start now and save ourselves the trouble later. What a waste of life.

You, sir, should join the Iranians if that were the case.

2 wrongs don't make a right. Anyhow, the Iranians probably can't make a nuclear MISSILE, if they could even make a bomb. (how could a missile from Iran make it to the US anyway?) The bomb itself would have to be shot down from a plane, which itself could be shot down before it had a chance of reaching the target. You could simply declare for reasons of security that no Iranian planes are allowed into American airspace, and all who trespass run the risk of being shot down.

[Ser Clegane]

Anyhow, the Iranians probably can't make a nuclear MISSILE, if they could even make a bomb. (how could a missile from Iran make it to the US anyway?) The bomb itself would have to be shot down from a plane, which itself could be shot down before it had a chance of reaching the target. You could simply declare for reasons of security that no Iranian planes are allowed into American airspace, and all who trespass run the risk of being shot down.

Developing (or acquiring) the necessary carrier missiles would just be a matter of time, and once Iran actually has nuclear weapons (even if they are not yet capable of reaching the US) any attempts to attack would be a bit late as they could then randomly hit any Western ally in the region (just like North Korea is relatively save from a Western attack by practically holding its neighbours as hostages).

That being said, I would fully oppose a pre-emptive nuclear strike against Iran. As frightening as the idea might be - but I fear that we have to get accustomed to the fact that 5 years down the road (or 10 years if somebody decides to launch a small-scale strike on Iran's nuclear facilities) Iran will be have nuclear weapons - my (albeit little) hope is that by that time perhaps the Irani people also manage to rid themselves of the current regime...

[BigTex]

You, sir, should join the Iranians if that were the case.

2 wrongs don't make a right. Anyhow, the Iranians probably can't make a nuclear MISSILE, if they could even make a bomb. (how could a missile from Iran make it to the US anyway?) The bomb itself would have to be shot down from a plane, which itself could be shot down before it had a chance of reaching the target. You could simply declare for reasons of security that no Iranian planes are allowed into American airspace, and all who trespass run the risk of being shot down.

You forget all the terrorist groups the Iranians created and fund. Wouldn't be to hard with enough tries to smuggle a bomb into a western nation. Iran has already used its terrorist groups to attack Isreal, wouldnt be suprisisng once they got the bomb that a few months later Isreal gets bombed.

2 wrongs don't make a right.

It may not make a right, but that second one sure makes you feel a h*ll of alot better.

[Reenk Roink]

Hypothetically, if they were to attack the US with a nuke I would consider the civilians just as guilty as the decision makers of their country.

Ahh...

Draw parallels, my fellow Organians, to the rhetoric of Osama bin Laden and his justification against US citizens...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Draw parallels, my fellow Organians, to the rhetoric of Osama bin Laden and his justification against US citizens...

!!Crazy Tangent Alert!!

Weren't the Organians the energy beings (posing as peasant villagers) that stopped Kirk and the Federation, and the Klingons starting a massive intergalactic war over their 'backwater' planet? There's a lovely scene in the episode where Kirk and the Klingon commander both get furious with the mild Organian mayor for simply shutting off their weaponry - "How dare you interfere...We have a right to make war...Legitimate claims..."

Maybe not as off-topic as it seems...

[Kanamori]

I think Kanamori's statement was meant to be sarcastic (at least I hope so )

I am never sarcastic. I think that the whole middle east and all of yurup should be turned into glass from our nukes. Nuke 'em all, nuke 'em all, nuke 'em all.


ehem.

[yesdachi]

Ahh...

Draw parallels, my fellow Organians, to the rhetoric of Osama bin Laden and his justification against US citizens...

Its all just a matter of perspective, and who’s is more widely accepted.

[Watchman]

That degree of moral relativism starts inching on the territory of nihilism, you know.

[Upxl]

Hypothetically, if they were to attack the US with a nuke I would consider the civilians just as guilty as the decision makers of their country.

If the US were to want to make a nuclear strike against another country our leaders would have to get the people to agree (or at least the people who represent the people). Therefore we (the citizens of the US) would be as guilty as our decision makers. If we did not want the decision makers to make a nuclear strike against another country but they said they were going to anyway or just did anyway I think the US citizens would freak and run those decision makers out on their rumps. If the citizens go along with it they are as guilty as those who push the button.

That said I would have no qualms about using a nuclear retaliation. Nukes like a dog are best used as a deterrent but if no one is deterred anymore by them perhaps it is time to let the dog bite those that would trespass to show that we still have teeth and are not just a bunch of hug offering burocrates.

Honestly, that is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

[yesdachi]

Honestly, that is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

What did I write that is the dumbest thing you have ever heard? Do you think that an elected official doing the biding of the people negates the people’s responsibility of the official doings? Or that nukes are not best used as a deterrent? Or maybe you think we are a bunch of hug offering burocrates?

Seriously, if you are going to call what I have written dumb at least try and point out why. Besides, if you are convincing enough I may just change my mind.

[Joker85]

What people here are forgetting is the obvious. Future deterence. All the "moral sympathetics" here are ignoring that.

If tomomrow Iran passed a nuke to a terrorist group, or (obviously hypothetical as they won't have this capability for some time) launched a missile at an American city and once struck we did not respond with nukes, that sets a dangerous presedent for future attacks from ANYONE. Have people heard of MAD? You know, that whole idea that kept the US and Russia from going to war for 50 years. Mututally assured destruction.

If a country or leader knows he can nuke us and we won't nuke back because "we won't punish your civilians for your actions", then what deterrent is there for them and most importantly future whackos?

Sorry, but that's the way of the world. It's not an easy place to live. If it's a choice between it being nuclear open season on my countrymen (which again, it would be if anyone with nukes who wanted to knows they can nuke us and we won't nuke back because people would cry "but the civilians didn't do it!!!") or a retalition sorry but it's not up for debate with me.

The whole cold war was based on the premise of "you nuke our civilians we nuke yours" and oddly enough the fear of that prevented two nations with more combined desctructive power than all other nations of the world combined -who both hated each other bitterly- from even a conventional war.

Now, with that said I'm talking purely intentional acts. During the cold war there were numerous instances on both sides where accidental launch was narrowly averted. If a soviet sub had malfunctioned or sank in American waters and it's cargo gone off, that's different and it would be wrong to retaliate because it would serve no purpose and protect no future American lives. You can't "deter" against an accident.

But if any nation on earth, either covertly or overtly intentionally causes the detonation of a nuke against America, anything BUT a retaliation in kind would show weakness to an enemy that would no doubt view it as that, and lead to many more American lives lost.

"To pardon one offense encourages the commision of many".

[JimBob]

No. If a father came and killed your kid would you kill his kid?

Should Iran launch some form of nuclear attack on any nation I will fully support targeted attacks on the leaders who perpetrated the attacks. But I will not and cannot support attacks on people whose only crime is not revolting against their leaders.

Saying 'no' to nukes doesn't mean saying 'no' to blowing the **** out of those responsible.

[rory_20_uk]

And so if terrorists detonate a nuke in the USA, how would you know where it came from? Pakistan, N. Korea, stolen from Russia? Iran is hardly going to tell you, are they?

[Upxl]

What did I write that is the dumbest thing you have ever heard? Do you think that an elected official doing the biding of the people negates the people’s responsibility of the official doings? Or that nukes are not best used as a deterrent? Or maybe you think we are a bunch of hug offering burocrates?

Seriously, if you are going to call what I have written dumb at least try and point out why. Besides, if you are convincing enough I may just change my mind.

My apologies,
I know you are entitled to an explanation but sometimes I lack the energy in these kind of situations.
I know you wont change your mind on the subject because reading this I see that you and I have a completely different view on the issue.
Trying to bring black and white to a more grey is very time, energy and nerve consuming.
Sometimes not even worth the trouble.

But like I said, your entitled to an explanation.


Hypothetically, if they were to attack the US with a nuke I would consider the civilians just as guilty as the decision makers of their country.

I don’t think that you can blame civilians for the decisions that the leaders of state make.
Just because you voted for a man or party doesn’t mean you can control its feelings and actions.

In 1933, the Nazis managed to achieve 44% of the votes.
So by your definition this means that 44% of the German public sought war, slave camps and extermination of ethnic minorities.


f the US were to want to make a nuclear strike against another country our leaders would have to get the people to agree (or at least the people who represent the people). Therefore we (the citizens of the US)…

Yes, let me remind you you’re speaking of the US.
Besides, I’m not so sure about this yet.

[JimBob]

And so if terrorists detonate a nuke in the USA, how would you know where it came from? Pakistan, N. Korea, stolen from Russia? Iran is hardly going to tell you, are they?

How did we find out who perpetrated 9/11, or any other terrorist attack? Why the hell else do we have intelligence agencies, other than to collect intelligence?

[Papewaio]

Why the hell else do we have intelligence agencies, other than to collect intelligence?

Well based on past events in Vietnam the precursor to the CIA was used to destablise the local government to the point that it required outside intervention. (creating terrorists)

And Ronald Reagan was in charge of the White House while the Iran Contra affair happened. (creating terrorists)

Osama Bin Laden was working with the same gentlemen as the CIA was in Afghanistan, now depending on wordplay they were freedom fighters when they were fighting the SU and terrorists when fighting the US. (creating terrorists)

So at least 3 cases that have been exposed where USA intelligence agencies have spent money on people who later on turn out to be terrorists.

So why not the possibility of the CIA buying a dud nuke from the former SU and setting up Iran with another one of their patsy terrorist groups? Similar things have happened in the past why not in the future?