Callete! Este es nuestro pais y nuestro himno nacional ahora!!!

[Don Corleone]

This is probably the wisest thing that have been said in this thread so far.

There you go. Strip each country of it's sovereignty, and let global anarchy commence. Brilliant, Sjakihata... you really know how to cut to the chase.

[solypsist]

i, for one, welcome our new mexican overlords

[Byzantine Prince]

So, to those of you who say 'they're not trying to take over'... let me ask you... when a forgeign invader starts altering your national symbols, and altering the are they still really 'just trying to get along?'

You might think too highly of your national symbols. They mean nothing, you should stand by your ideals instead of your symbols, whose meanings can be different with ever person or organization you ask.

Americans must allow anyone that wants to come.... and then pay for their schooling, pay for their hospitals, pay their bills for them when they get unemployed, pay their kids welfare.........yeah, sure seems fair to me.

You must be joking me. Take half that money you spend in Iraq on pretty no purpose and you have the best education, economic investment(for jobs), and health care in the world. America is pretty much empty in the enterior anyways, it doesn't cost you anything to spread out more and take advantage of all the wealth with cheap labour from Mexico. I don't see how this is different from Europeans and Africans coming to America, "legally".

And don't give me the "legal" crap. It's like saying if you want to become a citizen of Switzerland, all you have to do is immigrate there legally. We both know how impossible that is.

It is the meshing of all these immigrants, and their cultures to forge a new country a new idea a new culture the USA. These mostly illegal immigrants from mexico do not want to mesh, they want us to change for them, that is un-American.

The Mexicans need time to assimilate. You can't expect wetbacks who got there last week to speak english and like Rock music and drink coca cola, or whatever else "American Culture" entails. Or need I remind you that Mexico is in America as well.

[Tribesman]

Poor Don , you talk about being specific , but you fall at the first fence .
1) making illegal immigrants criminal

Stop while you are behind Don , as you are really clueless .
My point is, and was, you don't have anywhere near the immigration to your country that we do. You don't know the first thing about it. Yes, as a token to your EU moneymen, you've started some guest-worker visas for eastern Europeans,
Ah the guest workers , they are not illegal are they .
Lets see last year alone the number of new guest workers amounted to over 10% of the entire existing population , so Don did your government legally let in over 27 million workers last year ?
They must have let in more than that as you say we don't have the immigration that you have .

[Don Corleone]

Poor Don , you talk about being specific , but you fall at the first fence .
1) making illegal immigrants criminal

Laugh all you want, but that's what the big fighting point is right now. Some lawmakers in the Senate are propsing legislation to make crossing the border without proper paperwork a felony. Others are taking a comporomise stance and making it a misdemeanor. Others are holding firm against any law that makes 'undocumented immigrants' (if that term makes you feel better), and it's this position that the marchers in the streets are calling for. They want an open border, no limits, and help for those making the crossing. Laugh all you want, but at the end of the day, that's what this fight is all about... enforcing the laws on the books. The guest worker program, a reversal of the policy about babies born to illegals in this country... those are all side issues.

Stop while you are behind Don , as you are really clueless .

If all you have is scorn & derision, you're not really adding anything. We all know you have plenty of that. Note that you managed to discuss how clueless I was, without one substantive statement to explain why.

As for Ireland's immigration issues: first, guest workers are NOT the same thing as immigrants. Guest workers aren't entitled to social services, and they go home at the end of a set period of time. According to the US Census bureau, in 2002, we had 33.1 million immigrants, or 11.5% of our population. They're here for as long as they want to be. They don't go home after a year or 2. As I said, you have nothing in your national experience to compare it to.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

A few points....

I agree with Don regarding the anthem.

Swords':

It is a de facto policy of the Mexican government to use illegal aliens as a revenue tool. Somewhere between 10 and 20 billion dollars annually are wired/carried back to Mexico from individuals working in the United States. These dollars directly address financial needs of the families in question (nothing wrong with that) but also constitute a means of easing the Mexican government's worries about poverty generating political unrest -- and all paid for by the USA without Mexico having to dip into its own revenues. A generation of Mexicans has grown up with the expectation that quite a number of them will jump the border to work in the USA -- it's become their norm (according to a recent poll of Mexican citizens). Mexico even has programs that conduct "desert survival" and other "crossing" education.

I'm even angrier with my own government at its complicity in this -- regardless of the party in power -- for the last 40 years. Mexico did not develop this policy without our tacit acceptance.

Don C.:

I recall one Tribesman post on Israel/Palestine that was a clear statement of position and suggested solution to the question (not really one I fully agreed with, but give him the credit he's due). I think he's actually pretty sharp in his assessment of things -- it's just that he enjoys ripping up other posts more than positing his own views. I do agree with you, however, that his normal "tone" is either condescending or dismissive -- which can get under one's skin a bit (though that is, after all, the goal).

[Don Corleone]

I think Tribesman is quite sharp. I don't agree with his assessment on things, but I'm not calling into question his intelligence. My comment was specifically related to the fact that I personally have never seen him be even remotely respectful of opinions he disagrees with. But hey, it's Friday. I should lighten up.

[Tribesman]

Laugh all you want, but that's what the big fighting point is right now. Some lawmakers in the Senate are propsing legislation to make crossing the border without proper paperwork a felony. Others are taking a comporomise stance and making it a misdemeanor.
Thats more like it Don , completely different from 1) making illegal immigrants criminal
Now to some specifics regarding the felony bit , not just any felony , a federal felony .
So instead of just catching criminals and deporting them , you would have the expense of giving them a trial instead of just a brief hearing , and ofcourse you would have to incarcerate them while you waited for the trial (big backlog there don't ya think) then after the trial you have to imprison them , (imprisoning people in a federal penitentiary is expensive Don , not a very conservative program , what with the defecit and such) , then after their sentance is completed you deport them . Thats a very long winded time consuming process isn't it , much better to just enforce the laws as they stand don't ya think .
Also you have another problem , not a new one really it dates back to '96 ,you know the laws concerning foriegners who have committed crimes being deported , regardless of their legal or illegal status , once they have completed their sentance they must be deported , but many cannot be deported , yet cannot be released , so effectively they are recieving life sentances . I wonder how much it costs to keep an illegal in prison for the rest of their natural ?

and it's this position that the marchers in the streets are calling for. They want an open border, no limits, and help for those making the crossing.
Ah ...I see the problem there Don , you take the views of the few extremist groups who are protesting and apply them to all of the multitude of different groups , organisations and politicians that are protesting .
Thats not very clever is it . It is dodging the issue somewhat , just like dodging the multitude of different things being proposed or enacted that merit protest .


As for Ireland's immigration issues: first, guest workers are NOT the same thing as immigrants.
So that explains....Ah the guest workers , they are not illegal are they
Then of course there are also the citizens of the EU who are entitled to live and work anywhere they want over here , well apart from ares of the Gaeltacht which are introducing funny laws that need to be challenged (and are being challenged)
So you come forth with .....According to the US Census bureau, in 2002, we had 33.1 million immigrants, or 11.5% of our population. Wow , all those came in one year , thats amazing .
Oh ....but they didn't did they so its not really a comparison of like and like is it .

which can get under one's skin a bit (though that is, after all, the goal).
Too right Seamus thats the idea , give a little dig and see if the arguements put forth will stand up to any scrutiny and can be defended , or if they are just populist babble with little thought or content .

[Don Corleone]

Dude, you are so tiring. If I respond, I waste another 20 minutes of my life, arguing with somebody that will never admit they're wrong, even if they've come to that conclusion hours earlier. I don't respond, and you declare victory and claim my arguments were all hollow...

So be it, it's the game we play around here... Okay, I give. I'm a moron, and the great and wise Tribesman once again has proven his superior intellect and how stupid those yanks can be. But before I go, sir, before you begin your victory party, just a couple of questions.... I'm not bright enough to make actual statements with the likes of you around, so I'll limit myself and my humble little brain to just some simple questions, if you don't mind...

-How is debating attaching criminal pentalties to illegal immigration 'completely different' as you put it from making illegal immigrants criminal?

-Defending our borders costs money, as you rightly point out. So does maintaining a navy. Perhaps we should disband our entire military tomorrow to save money, as you seem to be recommending? Actually, when you come right down to it, a criminal justice system in general costs money, not just for illegal immigrants. Wouldn't it save yet more money, oh great and knowledgeable Tribesman, to just empty the prisons and disband our criminal justice system?

-I'm afraid that with my little brain I didn't get the point you were trying to make between guest workers and illegal immigrants. I suppose, since it was in reference to a statement I made about the Irish mistreating guest workers, that you're saying its okay to mistreat guest workers, but illegal immigrants deserve the best of treatment?

-I'm afraid I missed where I said all 33.1million arrive in 2002, but being as stupid as I am, I'm not surprised. Would you care to point out to me where I did?

-Likewise, I failed to see where you provided any numbers on the actual number for foreign nationals living in your country, just the numbers you allowed in for 1 year in a guest worker program. Maybe I'm so benighted that I just missed it. Could you repeat it for me please?

I'm sorry to trouble you and take up your time, Mr. Tribesman, sir. I'm sure somebody as wise and intelligent as you has better things to do with their time, so I sure do appreciate these learning sessions. They're probably the only hope for a ignoramus like me, if there's any hope to be had at all, that is.

[Tribesman]

How is debating attaching criminal pentalties to illegal immigration 'completely different' as you put it from making illegal immigrants criminal?

If something is already a crime then how on earth can it be "made" a crime ?

Defending our borders costs money, as you rightly point out.
Yep and its expensive , so why waste more money imprisoning people when you can just deport them , the money makes more sense being spent on improving border security and speeding up deportations than on keeping people in prison and slowing down deportations .

[Soulforged]

For the non-Spanish speakers among you, it would appear that latino immigrants, no longer simply content to speak in Spanish, have made a new national anthem, in Spanish, 'based closely' on the Star Spangled Banner. Apparently, some English language lines will be inserted in a version due out in June, scolding people who support immigration controls.

So, to those of you who say 'they're not trying to take over'... let me ask you... when a forgeign invader starts altering your national symbols, and altering the are they still really 'just trying to get along?'

Actually it's "¡¡Callate!! ¡¡¡Este es nuestro país y nuestro himno nacional ahora!!!". I'm not a big lover of traditions and rules. Let's just say that if your traditions, and with that your entire culture, and even a mixture of languages, have to change, they'll change. It will become richer, actually, not poorer. I don't know what's the fear of loosing traditions, it seems so irrational...Like a judge said one time "They're trying to take faith out of our lives..." what the hell does that means? The american culture changed over the centuries as much as any other in the world, you shouldn't be afraid of it, you should be afraid of staying on the past. Besides your anthem is not gonna change, it will be translated, and if you like, it will penetrate even more hearts. What's your problem with that?

I mean I can understand the problem with the illegal immigrants messing up your economy, but legal immigrants "messing up" your culture?

[scooter_the_shooter]

They do mess up our culture, where do you think alot of our drugs are smuggled in from....mexico (how shocking ) by a latino gang called MS13, many of them are illegals.

[Don Corleone]

Soulforged, I have a deep respect and admiration for Latin American culture. Yes, the United States has been blessed to embrace it in the past, and will be blessed to continue to embrace it. Ustedes tienen mucho a darnos, y estaremos muy estupido a no aceptarlo. No se como a decir 'share' en espanol, but I meant share with us, not give to us.

But we have much here of value already. To show up and demand that the culture and language change to match that of the country you just left, and all existing other cultures be damned.... I'm sorry, I don't have much respect for that attitude.

The translation wasn't a direct translation. They changed some lines to change the meaning to suit their agenda.

[Divinus Arma]

The invasion.

more.

Spreading.

MEChA:

1) We are Chicanos and Chicanas of Aztlán reclaiming the land of out birth (Chicano and Chicana Nation); 2) Aztlán belongs to indigenous people, who are sovereign and not subject to a foreign culture; 3) We are a union of free pueblos forming a bronze nation; 4) Chicano and Chicana nationalism, as the key in mobilization and organization, is the common denominator to bring consensus to the Chicano and Chicana Movement; 5) Cultural values strengthen our identity as La Familia de La Raza; and 6) EPEDA, as a basic plan of Chicano and Chicana liberation, sought the formation of am independent national political party that would represent the sentiments of the Chicano and Chicana community.

MEChA Members:

Cruz Bustamante, Lt.Governor of California

Los Angeles Mayor VillaRaigosa

"For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing."

[Samurai Waki]

In Regards to Divinus Arma's statement: We need to put a few battalions of these on the border

[Divinus Arma]

Interlocking fields of fire.

[rotorgun]

Ellos estan muchos cabrones para deseando a cambiar nuestro Himno Nacional de Engles a Espanol!

Translation: They are a bunch of b_ s _ _ _ ds who wish to change our National Anthem from English to Spanish!

For this I am now officially going to boycott Cinco de Mayo (5th of May), and eating at all Restaurantes Mexicanos (Mexican Restaurants) until my government builds the equivelant of a giant Hadrian's Wall along the Mexican border, and rounds up every illegal immigrant (Mexican, Muslim, Polish, German, Canadian, French, Irish, English, Scotch, Islamic Extremist Terrorist....well, you get the idea) in this country, and gives them an all expense paid trip back to their "pais"(country)

I know this means I will probably not be eating any Comidas Mexicanas (Mexican Food) until I die, but it's the price I must pay for my governments' inability to enforce its own laws. I would like to invite anyone who thinks that having the Star Spangled Banner sung in Espanol (except in Spain or Mexico at official ceremonies) to Besa mi coolo! (Kiss me where the sun don't shine!)

PS: Please forgive any mistakes in my Spanish translations, as English is my first languge, and I only learned Spanish in order to show respect, and converse with the legal latino immigrants (whom I truly respect) living in our country. I hope that they may become citizens if that is what they desire, and encourage them to do so. Buena suerte amigos! (Good luck freinds!)

PPS: Nice equipment those soldiers have.

[GoreBag]

Canada's had a French and English version of the national anthem for a while now, and, well, the world didn't end.

[Samurai Waki]

Its not so much that I care what language it is translated in. But when our cultural heritage is stomped into the ground for political gain is when I get a little peevish.

[Brenus]

“We need to put a few battalions of these on the border” Knowing the length of the border, you will need more than few battalions. And they are most needed some where else. And didn’t the US signed a treaty with Mexico for a Large Common Market?

[Marcellus]

Canada's had a French and English version of the national anthem for a while now, and, well, the world didn't end.

Surely that's because both English and French are official languages in Canada? Although the USA has no official language as such, de facto English is the (only) official language.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I was surprised when I first found out that nowhere in the constitution English is named the language of the US. Was it taken for granted, overlooked or was the idea to let natural selection take its course?

What about dealing when dealing with the government? Is one obliged by law to do so in English?

Can individual states enforce a language? The four southwest border states will at the current demographic rate have a Spanish majority within 25 years. Could they abolish English, make these states officially bilingual, or make Spanish an obligatory subject in schools?

[doc_bean]

I was surprised when I first found out that nowhere in the constitution English is named the language of the US. Was it taken for granted, overlooked or was the idea to let natural selection take its course?

There was some debate about it, I think the Pensilvanias (sp?) also proposed German (or was it Dutch ?) as a second language. I think they wanted top avoid EU like situations were every document has to be translated into several languages and every few years the debate about which languages should be used flares up again.

Also, early US was small governement, so this might have been seen as a minor point, not worth arguing about.

What about dealing when dealing with the government? Is one obliged by law to do so in English?

I was told that if you get arrested in the US you're rights have to be read to you in a language you understood. Don't know about other dealings with the government.

[solypsist]

the way some people are behaving you'd think someone had thrown a koran in the toilet.

oh wait, those guys are the nutty ones, as some people here were quick to point out while posturing their own superiority over such things.

[GoreBag]

Surely that's because both English and French are official languages in Canada? Although the USA has no official language as such, de facto English is the (only) official language.

Yeah, although certain parts of Canada speak very little French at all. Maybe certain states should adopt a Spanish version of the song, to be re-written, of course.

[lars573]

Only 2 are not officially English. Quebec (durr right) which is French first, and New Brunswick which is billingual. Also our French population has been here since day 1. We never haven't as yet had to go through the painful and multi-generational task of assimilating a new culture.

[Soulforged]

Soulforged, I have a deep respect and admiration for Latin American culture. Yes, the United States has been blessed to embrace it in the past, and will be blessed to continue to embrace it. Ustedes tienen mucho a darnos, y estaremos muy estupido a no aceptarlo. No se como a decir 'share' en espanol, but I meant share with us, not give to us.

Se dice compartir. The attitude of this people also scares me in some way, they appear to be fundamentalist of some kind. However I still don't see any more than an irrational fear.

But we have much here of value already. To show up and demand that the culture and language change to match that of the country you just left, and all existing other cultures be damned.... I'm sorry, I don't have much respect for that attitude.

I still don't understand where's the dramatic change that will force you to adapt a certain culture. Maybe you should learn spanish to adapt yourself to an inevitable change, but all other things can and will be shared. Your culture, again, will change even if you don't like it, legal immigrants can still run free to your lands and create any changes to your culture, as they please. Culture will not change by a single movement, a law, or anything of that kind, it will be long and subtle process of change. English became the most important language in the world, not only because it sounds cool, it's because you need it to do business, and I don't see any signs of that changing, wheter it's on the USA or outside.

The translation wasn't a direct translation. They changed some lines to change the meaning to suit their agenda.

First, you cannot make a direct translation because it will have no rhyme. Second, even so, why monopolize the culture? Why a group of people should have the right to dictate to another group how they should dress, what they should sign, what's the anthem that they should respect? Perhaps it's time to change that attitude. I really don't care if my anthem changes, if we adapt the american culture and we stop drinking "mate", if it happens it will happen. I don't believe I've the power of the right to keep it like it was, to mantain traditions, to save the past from the future. And again, this is a question that goes beyond illegal immigration, your culture will change even if the immigrants are completely legal, is simply an human process, and we're ruled by humans, not by God, not by traditions, not by texts... I understand that some people will be incredibly reluctant to accept a change of their national anthem, is something that we learn to love, but still there's nothing more than an irrational fear in that. I had recently read an article of hispanoamericans in the USA. It appers that over the long decades of immigration, the hispanos have learned to take something from american culture that they find particulary appealing to them, that's consumism, patriotism, a healthy democratic attitude (learn to defend your rights, campaing to change something through vote,etc), between other things, but they always keep something from their culture, and that eventually provoques a change in their neighborgs, this will continue to spread.

Canada's had a French and English version of the national anthem for a while now, and, well, the world didn't end.

Exactly. Canada is one the best known proof that mixtures of languages does not means the end of the world. The people form a country, not traditions, not laws, not state...

Surely that's because both English and French are official languages in Canada? Although the USA has no official language as such, de facto English is the (only) official language.

Surely you'll agree that if two official languages don't mean chaos, then monopolizing languages is not a very healthy or reasonable attitude from the government. I still want to know how many hispanos there's on the USA, that's the single most important thing to determine a lot of things in this thread.
EDIT: "Hispanics of any race 14.1%, or 41.3 million." It doesn't seem too big. And still it provoques changes. Seriously, I don't think that this movements will do any more noise than what they're doing now, perhaps when the hispanic popullation reaches %40, then we'll be talking. Of course in this census the illegal immigrants are not included.

[GoreBag]

Only 2 are not officially English. Quebec (durr right) which is French first, and New Brunswick which is billingual. Also our French population has been here since day 1. We never haven't as yet had to go through the painful and multi-generational task of assimilating a new culture.

I disagree. The French Canadians are still dealing with assimilation problems. Even if I do live in an officially English province, we still sing the national anthem in that half-English, half-French medley, and I imagine other places do too (Manitoba, notably).

[Louis VI the Fat]

The French Canadians are still dealing with assimilation problems.

Gah, the problem is that the English didn't assimilate to the French. Canada had been French for two centuries, until it was overrun by the English. Who, much like the latino's at present, won the demographic race and tried to impose their language and culture on an already existing nation.

*shamelessly disregards the native Americans*

[lars573]

I disagree. The French Canadians are still dealing with assimilation problems. Even if I do live in an officially English province, we still sing the national anthem in that half-English, half-French medley, and I imagine other places do too (Manitoba, notably).

The problem is that for 200 years the English tried to stamp out the French via strangulation. Then 40 years ago the English majority went "You can be French it's cool." Both groups are still adapting to the new reality that we are going to coexist without one stamping on the other.