What should prison be like?

[Idaho]

What is the purpose of prison? Should it just deprive liberty? Should it be a brutal place? Should it vary depending on the severity of the crime?

Should juveniles be put in adult prison?

Came across this report after watching a film called Animal Factory:

Report on Rape in US Prisons

Should 16 year olds who have committed minor offences be frequently raped? What duty of care does the prison system owe prisoners?

[Divinus Arma]

All prisoners should be in solitary confinement. There should be NO mingling. They should be restricted to their cells and have little access to anything else for the duration of their stay.

That would help. Of course, knowing that I would be butt-raped had certainly kept me from enaging in my more violent fantasies as an aggressive youth in the past.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Again, the central question one must ask about any prison system is: Are you going to let them out again?

If a state uses prison to punish, but intends that any prisoners thus committed will be released at some point, it has a moral duty to its citizens to strive towards rehabilitating those prisoners effectively. Allowing any brutalisation, however pleasing to the average populist, ignores the fact that releasing brutalised people back into the community will only perpetuate and increase violence and law-breaking.

The only other option to incredibly expensive rehabilitation and support programmes to break the cycle of re-offending (and acceptance that some will not respond) is to lock virtually every prisoner up for ever, no matter what their crime. Then you can leave them to their own devices, and you will still get a big bill, but this time for security measures to control desperate men and women.

So, the question to ask yourselves is: When he comes back out and sets up home near my family, do I want as a neighbour an emotionless thug who has been raped beyond human endurance, having learned to survive by the lowest of human instincts?

[Faust|]

I agree with DA. Ironic as it may seem, somebody in for assault doesn't deserve to be brutalized and raped.

[doc_bean]

It depends. Do you want a prison to be punishment, or rehabilitation ? Or a little of both ?

I personally feel prisons should at least provide basic human "rights": food, water, a bed, reasonable climate conditions, and the security of not getting butt-raped. A distinction should be made based on the type of crime: a young shoplifter might just need some discipline and possibly some education to put him back on the right track, while a recidivist child molester should imo never be released again. The type of prison you put them in should reflect the different needs.

Making prison about punishment might seem like the thing to do in the heat of the moment, but it isn't the civilized thing to do. It certainly doesn't fit with my Christian upbringing. I don't believe prisons should be luxury resorts where all prisoners just play PlayStation all day, they should have order in their life again, and if possible, a purpose such as a job or an education they can focus on.

Furthermore, if you're going to release prisoners again, I think it is important to give them a chance in the real world again. For this reason prisoners should be employed for various things. Cleaning roads, basic manufacturing, repairs, etc. preferably public services so they don't compete with private companies. A part of the money they earn should go to them, as a sort of savings account. This money could be used by them to get back on their feet after they get released.

Youth punishment is a difficult issue. I think if the crime is bad enough (violent crimes like murder or rape, or second offences), they should be judged like adults.

[Don Corleone]

Believe it or not, Idaho, even heartless conservatives like myself actually have big issues with the American prison system. It's not just youths either. We don't segregate based on the violence of the offense you're going away for anymore. We try to, but prisons are so overcrowded, some punk selling grass at the local university is going to be labelled 'drug-dealer' and go to a maximum security prison (translation, bring the vaseline).

It took something like 8 months for the inmates to get their hands on Jeffrey Dahmer and beat him to death, in the middle of a rec room mind you, with mops and brooms and nobody, guards included, saw a thing. If anybody deserved that fate, that POS did, but my point is, if that can happen to somebody so notorious, it can happen to anybody that the powers that be in prison decide it should happen to. And let me tell you folks, the powers that be aren't the wardens.

We have a duty and a responsibility that when we incarcerate somebody, we MUST guarantee their safety. Their well-being (socialization, recreation the like) is a great goal, but as long as you cannot guarantee that somebody won't be forcibly sodomized in their 5 year prison stint, you have no right to put them there.

Of all the Leftist issues out there, prison reform would be the one that rings the most true with me. Its one of the few government programs that actually REALLY does need more spending.

Personally, I would make about 4 or 5 'reservations', in the middle of Alaska, Montana, and other remote areas. You have to fly to get there, there's not even a train for 50 miles....I'd have everyone sealed into individual pods and bring to them what was necessary. Think Pelican Bay (which, despite it's flaws, is actually very safe for the inmates, and they clam they've never had a rape).

[Alexanderofmacedon]

What is the purpose of prison? Should it just deprive liberty? Should it be a brutal place? Should it vary depending on the severity of the crime?

Should juveniles be put in adult prison?

Came across this report after watching a film called Animal Factory:

Report on Rape in US Prisons

Should 16 year olds who have committed minor offences be frequently raped? What duty of care does the prison system owe prisoners?

Well I think they should seperate the two prisons. Juveniles in one group and adults in an other. The only problem is that 'Juvy' is more strict I think. They should just have them be equal, but still seperate. The raping part, is just plain...

[Don Corleone]

It's not a simple matter of just isolating populations: juvy on one side and adults on the other. Don't forget, that 16 year old did something to get themselves landed in prison. He's going to show up to juvy and if he's the oldest and the stronges, treat the other kids the way he would have been treated in adult prison, which was why the probation officer decided to send him to adult prison, more than likely. It really requires total confinement and isolation.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

It would be impossibly costly, but if they had a prison for every age group. Like every two years they move up to the next set.

[Sjakihata]

Foucaults Surveiller et punir has some good comments on the prison system. Especially I like Foucaults attention to detail and that by telling a seemingly unimportant story, he traces a line through history explaining different methods of punishment.
When you did a crime, in earlier time, the punishment was often physical, lashes, decapitation or others such things. However, in the 19th century, Foucault explains, punishments began focusing on the internal instead of the external, meaning the soul got punished now not the body. In the wake of this change an elaborate prison system was created. However, as Foucault points out, the prison system doesnt work well as a deterrent nor as an effective way of punishing, many inmates regurarly comes back again for another round. As a deterrent the prison obviously doesnt work well, to cite a current example. In danish law, our rightwing government has recently increased the sentences for assaults (especially serious assaults). That would - by the reasoning behind prison as a deterrent mean, that serious assault would drop - that's not the case, since the increase in punishment the crime rates in serious crimes has been climbing paying no attention to the longer punishments.

Punishments in modern society reflects the crime, in terms of days to be in prison. Apparently, it would seem, criminals, when conducting the crime, has different approaches: 1) the crime is spontaneous, no attention is payed to punishment, only the current crime is in focus, it would be done no matter if death penalty was the consequence. 2) the criminal makes a qualified guestimate and reasons that the potential win of the crime is bigger than the punishment (this case can be affected to higher punishments, however, few criminals are shrewd like this one) and 3) the crime is psychologically motivated, meaning the criminal has a disorder, disease or has 'a bad childhood' etc, so that it is really no longer a choice but rather something that draws him to do the crime (often violence, rape etc).

Im sure more general categories can be highlighted, but these are basic, and only 2 can be adjusted by higher penalties, and I am sure that the second category is the lesser one of all criminals.

So, prisons should be a place for rehabilitation, however, I do not agree with some of the modern prisons with too much luxury, it should still be remembered as a bad place (other than depriving freedom) and it should work as a deterrent as much as it can. Recognizing my previous comments, it is clear that more is needed. A change of life in society, better education, public healthcare (psychologists, pedagogues, social workers etc) and other elements to work preventive, basically I think a lot of crime is proportional to the average living standard of a society, if we better that we lower the crimes in a good, sensible and permanent way.

[Idaho]

The trouble with making prison a bad place is that it creates a class of brutalised, and hence brutal people who are on a revolving door from prison to society.

[BigTex]

Tricky subject, on one hand we need to punish those who commit crimes, but on the other we need to rehabilitate them so they don't commit more crimes. I think we should spend more helping them, and more on security inside the prisons. Under no circumstances should we have children in adult prisons. We also should not no matter the crime have children tryed as adults and given adult sentences, their children and they don't completely understand what they've done. Some high crimes like murder though, we should not bother with rehabilitation, instead we should lock them up and throw away the key, or better yet send them to the chamber. As for those who commit rapes, molestation and other such sex related crimes, I purpose that we lock them in a cell with Bubba,



Meet Bubba. Bubba wants you.

[Soulforged]

There's already rules that set how prisons should be, I think in most countries, and for what I know they've the right idea. The only punishment that offenders should receive is taking away one of their "goods", those that the average man will certainly care to conserve, the first three in my list would be: freedom, life and money. But life is away because I don't like executions. So the only purpose of jail time is to be deprived from freedom, in the best conditions that can be provided for a minimum part of the budget, as there's a lot of more important things to do. There's certain things to respect at all costs: dangerous offenders could be in the same prison, but not in the same room with other lesser offenders. The guards should show that they serve at least a legal purpose and respect the laws. No prisoner should be tortured, by the guards or other prisoners. The place should be in healthy conditions, cleaned every day, walls in their place, etc.
Many of those who are serving could be innocents, so everyone should be protected from any unnecesary danger (not that the guilty should suffer, of course).

[Divinus Arma]

I don't even see a debate here.


Does anybody think that prisoners should be allowed to socialize at all when safety cannot be guaranteed?


Regardless of age, there can be no violence if there is NO contact, not in showers, rec areas, no cafeterias, etc. Each inmate must have their food brought to them. Each inmate must wash themselves via bucket, soap, and washcloth (A drain would be in every cell). No TV. No talking to each other, since cells would be mostly sound proof. No personal recreation. If a focus on rehabilitation is appropriate, then individual skills training could occur within the cell.

[Soulforged]

Regardless of age, there can be no violence if there is NO contact, not in showers, rec areas, no cafeterias, etc. Each inmate must have their food brought to them. Each inmate must wash themselves via bucket, soap, and washcloth (A drain would be in every cell). No TV. No talking to each other, since cells would be mostly sound proof. No personal recreation. If a focus on rehabilitation is appropriate, then individual skills training could occur within the cell.

So in sintesis you want them to become mad.... I don't agree with you, I think they should have at least human contact. Why taking that away, are you the mother Teresa? From friends, family, wife, girlfriend...And not human too, why not a pet? I don't like the concept of rehabilitation, but if you like it, then in this way your obstricting it, not enforcing it. Human contact is basic in rehabilitation. The boldest programs in such road talk about massive reunions of the inmates with psicologists and other experts to help them in their rehabilitation process. That's common activities, learning jobs, to socialize. The point of rehabilitation is that when they come out of prison they can mix themselves with the rest of society again, not be isolated as they were, even when most probably, if you're a well known criminal, most likely a murderer, you will not be accepted by the moral majority.

[Kagemusha]

I think Prisons should be work oriented.Hard labour from morning to evening.Inmates should get deacent food and deacent sleep.But other then that.Work,Work and more work.

[Idaho]

Does anybody think that prisoners should be allowed to socialize at all when safety cannot be guaranteed?


Regardless of age, there can be no violence if there is NO contact, not in showers, rec areas, no cafeterias, etc. Each inmate must have their food brought to them. Each inmate must wash themselves via bucket, soap, and washcloth (A drain would be in every cell). No TV. No talking to each other, since cells would be mostly sound proof. No personal recreation. If a focus on rehabilitation is appropriate, then individual skills training could occur within the cell.

Although not entirely without merit, I think there are three problems with the solitary confinement approach.

Firstly it would be impractically expensive. The amount of staff and cell space required to keep everyone in their cells would be huge.

Secondly I am not sure if it would do much good psychologically - although I am prepared to have my mind changed on this.

Thirdly, and most importantly though; I think that this process would make the prisoners dependent and institutionalised. I think prison should, for 90% of cases - be looking forward to release and what kind of person is being released.

[Strike For The South]

Along the lines of the rape issue. The guards have to be held a hell of alot more acountable as it seems (at least in the report) that they are the "enablers". Reforming the men who work and run these prisons would go a long way.

[Xiahou]

Although not entirely without merit, I think there are three problems with the solitary confinement approach.

Firstly it would be impractically expensive. The amount of staff and cell space required to keep everyone in their cells would be huge.

Secondly I am not sure if it would do much good psychologically - although I am prepared to have my mind changed on this.

Thirdly, and most importantly though; I think that this process would make the prisoners dependent and institutionalised. I think prison should, for 90% of cases - be looking forward to release and what kind of person is being released.

Permanent solitary confinement has been tried and was pretty much a total failure- read up on Eastern State Penitentiary. I think prison needs to be hard- very hard. This obviously serves as a deterrent, but as an added benefit, it helps keep costs down. They don't need air conditioning, cable TV, tasty meals, ect. A good example might be Maricopa county, Arizona where inmates are housed and fed in a 'tent city' in the desert for only a couple dollars a day. In addition, it's also important that prisoners do have an opportunity to learn something- if they're willing to do so. I think prisons should provide opportunities for inmates to earn their GEDs or even a HS diploma along with some basic vo-tech type job skills.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Single cell, swarming with well-armed guards, all prisons maximum security, single cells, only occasionally meet with other inmates. Prisoners punished for things they do wrong in prison by cutting food rations, etc. "Dangerous" inmates (eg. murderers) are kept in solitary confinement until the end of the sentence.





I'm harsh that way.

[Papewaio]

Before I decide what prison should be like, I think I will try and decide what type of people I would like to come out of prison.

Career criminal training is not what I want to see happening with prison.

I would like to see productive citizens come out of prison.
If this is done by living in spartan
or monk like conditions in solitary confinement
or if it is done by regular meetings with a shrink
or by blaming society until they vent it all out and realise that they are part of society
or by blaming mommy and daddy
or by having cups of tea with Jag...
I don't mind how it is done as long as we don't brutalise them and create something worse then went in there.

[Redleg]

Before I decide what prison should be like, I think I will try and decide what type of people I would like to come out of prison.

Career criminal training is not what I want to see happening with prison.

I would like to see productive citizens come out of prison. If this is done by living in spartan or monk like conditions in solitary confinement or if it is done by regular meetings with a shrink or by blaming society until they vent it all out and realise that they are part of society or by blaming mommy and daddy or by having cups of tea with Jag... I don't mind how it is done as long as we don't brutalise them and create something worse then went in there.

As a individual who spent time in prison has told me - the more the prison will focus on teaching the individual a real job skill, and teaching them the three R's that they refused to do when they were in school, the greater chance that individual has of being successful once they leave prison.

This individual also would recommend a little more privation of modern convience, such as Television.

But then again he only spent 5 years in one of the roughest prisons in the United States. The Oklahoma State Pen, in Macallister.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Lock them in a room with one of the following three guys.

[Soulforged]

Lock them in a room with one of the following three guys.

Hell, the second guy is even creepier than Mike. Who is he Capo?

[Major Robert Dump]

This thread and that website make me very uncomfortable, very angry. It's shameful that wer send nonviolent drug offenders to these prison in a drug war that is unwinnable and never changes, just as its shameful that private prison companies spend millions lobbying for mandatory minimums for drug offenses. Meanwhile, people who financially pilfer the lives of others through blue collar crimes arent sent to live with the rapists and the killers, they are sent to summer camp

The US Prison System, and the War on Drugs, is yet another example of how the Baby Boomers failed their kids. This is a mistake that is so bad, so deep, that fixing it is going to take a long time, and will only be facilitated by someone in government with balls, someone who is a true believer.

It's easy to turn ones head and pretend its not a problem, especially if in ones cozy little world none of this effects one.

[Joker85]

The fact that crap like that goes on in prison is more a lack of concern on the part of staff/guards than an inability to prevent it. Doing a little reading around it seems the prevailing attitude there is "if you can't fight back don't come crying to us you deserved it".

It seems only in prison is it acceptable to tell a rape victim "too bad next time fight better". If they started prosecuting every single incident of violence in prison the same way they did on the outside this would become a lot less common. If there is a 90% chance of getting another 10+ years added to someone's sentence chances are they won't risk it.

New prisons also need to be designed in such a way that all areas are observable by guards, and those areas where inmates are allowed to congregate have 24/7 video recording as well.

It looks like as it stands now, if you go to certain prisons for really no matter how much time you'll either come out a savage much better at doing the things that got you put there than you were before you entered, or a traumatized victim with unimaginable demons repressed just waiting to blow up on society.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Hell, the second guy is even creepier than Mike. Who is he Capo?

Garry Glitter, famous British rocker who is imprisoned in Singapore for Child Molestation.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The question - can we harness them as military manpower?

[English assassin]

Garry Glitter, famous British rocker who is imprisoned in Singapore for Child Molestation.

Ironically in view of his legal difficulties, Gary Glitter is also cockney rhyming slang for...well, a part of the body that Gary himself allegedly enjoys although not in the way God intended... (Clue: you need your Gary to do a Richard)

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