What should prison be like?

[JAG]

Prison Rehab

[Strike For The South]

prison punishment

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Single cell, swarming with well-armed guards, all prisons maximum security, single cells, only occasionally meet with other inmates. Prisoners punished for things they do wrong in prison by cutting food rations, etc. "Dangerous" inmates (eg. murderers) are kept in solitary confinement until the end of the sentence.





I'm harsh that way.

[Papewaio]

Before I decide what prison should be like, I think I will try and decide what type of people I would like to come out of prison.

Career criminal training is not what I want to see happening with prison.

I would like to see productive citizens come out of prison.
If this is done by living in spartan
or monk like conditions in solitary confinement
or if it is done by regular meetings with a shrink
or by blaming society until they vent it all out and realise that they are part of society
or by blaming mommy and daddy
or by having cups of tea with Jag...
I don't mind how it is done as long as we don't brutalise them and create something worse then went in there.

[Redleg]

Before I decide what prison should be like, I think I will try and decide what type of people I would like to come out of prison.

Career criminal training is not what I want to see happening with prison.

I would like to see productive citizens come out of prison. If this is done by living in spartan or monk like conditions in solitary confinement or if it is done by regular meetings with a shrink or by blaming society until they vent it all out and realise that they are part of society or by blaming mommy and daddy or by having cups of tea with Jag... I don't mind how it is done as long as we don't brutalise them and create something worse then went in there.

As a individual who spent time in prison has told me - the more the prison will focus on teaching the individual a real job skill, and teaching them the three R's that they refused to do when they were in school, the greater chance that individual has of being successful once they leave prison.

This individual also would recommend a little more privation of modern convience, such as Television.

But then again he only spent 5 years in one of the roughest prisons in the United States. The Oklahoma State Pen, in Macallister.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Lock them in a room with one of the following three guys.

[Soulforged]

Lock them in a room with one of the following three guys.

Hell, the second guy is even creepier than Mike. Who is he Capo?

[Major Robert Dump]

This thread and that website make me very uncomfortable, very angry. It's shameful that wer send nonviolent drug offenders to these prison in a drug war that is unwinnable and never changes, just as its shameful that private prison companies spend millions lobbying for mandatory minimums for drug offenses. Meanwhile, people who financially pilfer the lives of others through blue collar crimes arent sent to live with the rapists and the killers, they are sent to summer camp

The US Prison System, and the War on Drugs, is yet another example of how the Baby Boomers failed their kids. This is a mistake that is so bad, so deep, that fixing it is going to take a long time, and will only be facilitated by someone in government with balls, someone who is a true believer.

It's easy to turn ones head and pretend its not a problem, especially if in ones cozy little world none of this effects one.

[Joker85]

The fact that crap like that goes on in prison is more a lack of concern on the part of staff/guards than an inability to prevent it. Doing a little reading around it seems the prevailing attitude there is "if you can't fight back don't come crying to us you deserved it".

It seems only in prison is it acceptable to tell a rape victim "too bad next time fight better". If they started prosecuting every single incident of violence in prison the same way they did on the outside this would become a lot less common. If there is a 90% chance of getting another 10+ years added to someone's sentence chances are they won't risk it.

New prisons also need to be designed in such a way that all areas are observable by guards, and those areas where inmates are allowed to congregate have 24/7 video recording as well.

It looks like as it stands now, if you go to certain prisons for really no matter how much time you'll either come out a savage much better at doing the things that got you put there than you were before you entered, or a traumatized victim with unimaginable demons repressed just waiting to blow up on society.

[Fragony]

The idea of prison is to take a set amount of years from someone's life. Rehabilitation and education is fine and all, but if their time spend with a lovesick bubba is nasty enough they will do anything not to get there again. If they do anyway they are probably unfit for society and are exactly where they belong. Some people just can't be helped.

[Faust|]

The idea of prison is to take a set amount of years from someone's life. Rehabilitation and education is fine and all, but if their time spend with a lovesick bubba is nasty enough they will do anything not to get there again. If they do anyway they are probably unfit for society and are exactly where they belong. Some people just can't be helped.

Not all criminal acts are antisocial. This means you are thowing in good and productive citizens and members of society into prison where they may have to fight armed prisoners or get raped numerous times, maybe acquiring a death sentence in AIDS.

[rory_20_uk]

If I thought I'd have to have cups of tea with Jag if I went into jail I'd be a Model Citizen...

[Shaka_Khan]

Prison worsens a person's personality.

[English assassin]

It seems to me prison should be for punishment for the offender, for deterance for everyone else, and for rehabilitation of the offender.

Not all of those will in fact be acheived in every case, but those are surely the aims. We shouldn't prioritise any one to the exclusion of the others (sorry JAG)

What is clear is being anally raped isn't acceptable under any of those grounds. I don't really understand (well, I do,) how its possible to have an environment which is in principle so controled, and where in practice its the law of the jungle so long as no one is stupid enough to have a crack at a warden.

Bottom line is that the imprisoning authorities should be responsible for a safe environment in jail, or, as DC says, they have no business sending anyione there. Why don't the victims sue? We'd see some increased spending on CCTV and wardens after a few multimillion dollar payouts.

Edit: Oh yes, and medicalising rather than criminalising drug addiction would be a good idea..

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Hell, the second guy is even creepier than Mike. Who is he Capo?

Garry Glitter, famous British rocker who is imprisoned in Singapore for Child Molestation.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The question - can we harness them as military manpower?

[Soulforged]

The question - can we harness them as military manpower?

Why not? And then send them like cannon fodder.

[Samurai Waki]

Great men of the United States Republic, you are here to prove that you are men. The Forces of our enemy are great indeed, but they have only numbers, you have the courage and the will to overcome them, not to mention the superior equipment. Our new motto is "not one step back", one man shall recieve a rifle, the other a clip, when the man in front of you loses his rifle you take it and continue foreward. Retreat will result in your death as a traitor to our great state, victory or death will result in your name being heralded for generations to come. Which one will you choose? Fight a man, or die a coward? You have been sent here to prove that you are of more use than recieving anal rape in the American Prison System. Now Fight for Glory and Honor!
-Komissar Wakizashi, June 23rd 2022
The Assault on Duchiestan.

[English assassin]

Garry Glitter, famous British rocker who is imprisoned in Singapore for Child Molestation.

Ironically in view of his legal difficulties, Gary Glitter is also cockney rhyming slang for...well, a part of the body that Gary himself allegedly enjoys although not in the way God intended... (Clue: you need your Gary to do a Richard)

This message brought to you by the London Tourist Agency.

[rory_20_uk]

Penal legions... there's an idea.

I think that suicidal missions are not required. There are enough bad ones already. E.G. mine clearance.

And they've got a choice: listen to the teacher, or in 1 month's time they are going to Cambodia/Afghanistan/wherever trained or not. They have a quota of mines to safely diffuse and then their tour is done. The number of mines depends on the crime of course.

Other tasks like lugging aid to dangerous areas could be given. Say a 5 man team with one soldier overseeing.

The best can afterwards join the army proper, or possibly be pointed to wards a mercenary outfit. They are violent people. No point in pretending otherwise, so use the skills.

[Idaho]

It seems to me prison should be for punishment for the offender, for deterance for everyone else, and for rehabilitation of the offender.

That's a reasonable summation of the intent of prison. However does it really map with reality? Like the war on drugs, have we simply run out of ideas so just go back to the same old format.

As a punishment they probably do work - they aren't nice places.

As a deterrant - prison population is increasing. Rate of re-offending is high - so obviously not a success. Ditto rehabilitation.

[English assassin]

As a deterrant - prison population is increasing. Rate of re-offending is high - so obviously not a success.

This doesn't follow, since you don't know how many crimes would have been committed but for the threat of prison.

You are clearly right on rehab though. This needs some serious thought. In my completely uninformed opinion, rehab that focuses on skillls isn't really goign to work. I don't believe anyone commits crimes because they didn't pass their maths GSCE or haven't got a level 3 NVQ in motorcycle maintenance. After all, opportunities to take those exams exist outside prison. IMHO people commit crimes because they have poor organisational skills, so can't hold a job or a training course down, or poor impulse control, so they can't resist a punch up. and because they have the opportunity and the downside isn't that bad (in the UK anyway, where repeated anal rape is not a major part of the prison experience).

I wonder whether, with no disrespect to JASG, a lot of the talk about rehab is cobblers, and what is really needed is to up the detection rate and speed of processing therough the courts. I suspect a lot of criminals are perfectly capable of making fairly rational choices, and if it was more or less guaranteed that every mugging would be followed by an arrest within 48 hours, sentence within a week, and a mere two weeks behind bars, then release and repeat as necessary, pretty soon they would get the message.

Whereas allowing people a run of months or years at muggings, eventually catching them, taking six months to bring it to trial (during which they do mor muggings, after all those are effectively free since you can have them dealt with at the trial as TICs), then sending them down for a year, sends no sort of message.

[Idaho]

This doesn't follow, since you don't know how many crimes would have been committed but for the threat of prison.

You can't use that in a debate! How about my magic crime stopping apple sat by me on my desk. Had I eaten it yesterday, whose to say how many crimes might have not been stopped?

[rory_20_uk]

Course you can! it's called uncertainty. Ignoring it is what is stupid. And unlike your example with the apple,. people could be swayed by a threat of prison, and it may be possible to attempt to quantify this.

[A.Saturnus]

It seems to me prison should be for punishment for the offender, for deterance for everyone else, and for rehabilitation of the offender.

I agree with you in principle, but have some conceptual problems with that. Deterance and rehabilitation are clear but what exactly is punishment and what is it for? I reject the notion of some metaphysical "guilt" that has to be redeemed by inflicting aversive situations on humans. In a progressive society punishment has to be justified in a social-engineering view.
Theoretically, punishment by prison serves four purposes:

General prevention - people are deterred from breaking the law by the fact that they would receive punishment.
Individual prevention - by punishing anti-social behavior a pro-social learning process should be induced in the offender
Exclusion - while locked up, offenders can't harm society any further
Order of Law - the authority of the law must be integrated part of society, so that it is part of culture that acts against the law have repercussion

[Soulforged]

General prevention - people are deterred from breaking the law by the fact that they would receive punishment.
Individual prevention - by punishing anti-social behavior a pro-social learning process should be induced in the offender
Exclusion - while locked up, offenders can't harm society any further
Order of Law - the authority of the law must be integrated part of society, so that it is part of culture that acts against the law have repercussion

All those purposes can be grouped in the first two. The third is exactly what you don't like (and I either for that matter) but some judges do: "retribution".

[rory_20_uk]

For those that can't join in the "pro learning" camp a more basic line is useful: you screw up, we wreck your life.

I dog understands right from wrong, and learns if required from a quick whack when is naughty. if people want to act like animals, then there comes a point where they should be treated like them.

Yes, I know we're such wonderful "progressive societies". after all, we even send people overseas to be tortured - how progressive is that?

It is all a thin veneer over thousands of years of evolution. People that repeatedly act as though the veneer has been removed should be treated as such.

[A.Saturnus]

All those purposes can be grouped in the first two. The third is exactly what you don't like (and I either for that matter) but some judges do: "retribution".

No it isn't. Retribution is an emotional response. Exclusion is purely functional. While a person is in prison he or she can technically not reoffend (with exceptions). Thus excluding people who are prone to harm society is a means to protect society. This has nothing to do with retribution, it could rather be compared to quarantine.

It is all a thin veneer over thousands of years of evolution. People that repeatedly act as though the veneer has been removed should be treated as such.

There is no veneer of evolution, at least if you look at evolution of genes and memes. But I understand your reasoning. I understand it but reject it, because I do not think that it is beneficial for society. What would we gain from treating criminals like they treat others? You cannot discourage violent behavior by being violent. Our society would only become more martial, rather decreasing our safety.

[master of the puppets]

stop incarceration by stopping crime, stop crime by stopping criminals, stop criminals when they are young, junior high or highschool preferably, take a little looky looky into the permenant records and see who the most likely trouble makers are, identify there problem as best as possible (no father, terrible living conditions, drunkard/workoholic parents) and try to remedy these as quick as possible sparing no expence, if they still end up bad then do this.

*drug users put into forced rehab and cover arms in rubber cement (unpeircable by needles )
*rapists you put in jail solitary confindment with no human contact except sensativity training, and when they leave tattoo a large green R on there forearm indicating rapist, if they do it again immediat life imprisonment.
*child molestation: immediate and indiscriminatory deportation
*murder 2 goes to prisons not unlike those today but more heavily guarded, and more punishment for misbehaving (less recration time, cut rations) and once again the blue M, for murder, second offence is death.
*murder one is to be put into immediate solitary confindment and to be given no human contact or sympathy for the first 3 years then given 1-3 hours recreation time and asttemp to teach them a skill., still no inmate contact. when they leave jail administer the red M, to do it again is death.

what can i say, if it were really up to me i would give unto them all the pain that they gave there victim, but thast would be torture, not that they don't deserve torture, but i have to make this at least a little socially acceptable.

but really just torture the f***in c***-sucking b****es.

[rory_20_uk]

Nice rehab schpiel.

First a tremendous breach in personal liberties with datamining the individual's past.
Second, what if the parents refuse?
Third, expense. The money has to come from somewhere and to be seen to be doing some good. Else the "I'll mis-behave to get more attention / free holiday"

Drug users inject into all viens. Then tissue. Then sometimes even the eyeballs.
Child molesters deport where? Vietnam??

But nice to hear otherwise your views are restrained...