Has the U.S. Been Engaged in Systemic Torture?

[Leet Eriksson]

Here is my opinion.

NO.

I think the US needs to better control the press, becuase the media eventually snowballs things to hell.

I don't believe its systematic, more like sporadic with some of the ones torturing prisoners going a bit over the top.

[BigTex]

Sure there's probably been some cases were soldiers have brutalized some prisoners, that always happens in war to any country. But no its not systematic. Though I hardly care either way, as most of these organizations complaining consider yelling at someone torcher.

[John86]

Here is my opinion.

NO.

I think the US needs to better control the press, becuase the media eventually snowballs things to hell.

I don't believe its systematic, more like sporadic with some of the ones torturing prisoners going a bit over the top.

Exactly,
The media moves on its own accord with no regard for its country. Like I said before, Right or wrong, its still America.

[Duke John]

The media moves on its own accord with no regard for its country.

Or should it be: "The posters move on their own accord with no regard for the original posters intention?"
If you don't get it, read Lemur's last post again or for the first time.

[John86]

Or should it be: "The posters move on their own accord with no regard for the original posters intention?"
If you don't get it, read Lemur's last post again or for the first time.

No... It had relevance. It was stating that the media can turn a seemingly small event into a huge problem, such as a act of toture, to attempt to lessen the credibilty of the governemnt, and boost their own ratings.

[Lemur]

Hiji, a quick question -- how many well-documented cases of prisoner abuse would you need to consider this a problem? At what point would you start to look at the leadership?

[BigTex]

Hiji, a quick question -- how many well-documented cases of prisoner abuse would you need to consider this a problem? At what point would you start to look at the leadership?

I would need dozens of well documented cases to consider it a problem. I can certainly see some prisoner annoying guards to the point where they get pushed around a bit. Also alot of these terrorists have been taught to make false acusations of torture and to talk up any interrogation technique used so it looks like torture. It would take thousands of cases and some darn good evidence that they were ordered by a leader to torture them. Soldiers are people, and we all have certain breaking points, cases of prisoner abuse happen everywhere, in every country. Just because prisoner abuse happens doesnt mean we blame the president or his cabinet (I'm guessing thats what you meant by leadership) we instead blame the person who abused the prisoner, kinda makes sense to me.

[Lemur]

BigTex, if I'm understanding you correctly, nothing less than "thousands" of well-documented cases would sway your opinion. (BTW, it's spelled "torture.") I'm afraid the die-hard my-country-right-or-wrong folks are starting to remind me of a passage I read last night:

"Ambiguity vanishes from the fanatic's worldview; a narcissistic sense of self-assurance dispels all doubt. A delicious rage quickens his pulse, fueled by the sins and shortcomings of lesser mortals, who are soiling the world wherever he looks. His perspective narrows until the last remnants of proportion are shed from his life. Through immoderation, he experiences something akin to rapture."

-- Under the Banner of Heaven, Jon Krakauer.

[BigTex]

BigTex, if I'm understanding you correctly, nothing less than "thousands" of well-documented cases would sway your opinion. (BTW, it's spelled "torture.") I'm afraid the die-hard my-country-right-or-wrong folks are starting to remind me of a passage I read last night:

"Ambiguity vanishes from the fanatic's worldview; a narcissistic sense of self-assurance dispels all doubt. A delicious rage quickens his pulse, fueled by the sins and shortcomings of lesser mortals, who are soiling the world wherever he looks. His perspective narrows until the last remnants of proportion are shed from his life. Through immoderation, he experiences something akin to rapture."

-- Under the Banner of Heaven, Jon Krakauer.

Yes fully aware alot of my last post is poorly spelled, bad hangover, and I hadent drank my coffee yet.

Its not that it would take thousands to sway my opinion. Its that it would take thousands or some darn good evidence that the pres or his cabinet ordered the torture to sway my opinion that we should blame the higher ups. My opinion is prisoner abuse is a sad thing that happens in war and you shouldnt blame the leader for it, its the soldiers own fualt. You should also think of the hardcore leftist my leaderships is frooking everything while reading that passage. That passage is a good quote for anyone with an extreme view.

[Soulforged]

Here is my opinion.

NO.

I think the US needs to better control the press, becuase the media eventually snowballs things to hell.

I don't believe its systematic, more like sporadic with some of the ones torturing prisoners going a bit over the top.

Not exactly. There's a SYSTEM of regulations and narrow interpretations of signed treaties that ALLOW torture. Of course is of the interpretation of some that this is not torture, so it will be a normal legal system, instead of one wich allows torture. Another thing, if knowing that there's a clear treaty that you signed stating what is or what is not torture and then you interprete this text or create new law in the contrary sense, then your creating an space for the systematic use of torture.

[Tribesman]

I would need dozens of well documented cases to consider it a problem.
What is the current tally of confirmed investigated well documented cases according to the US military ?
Is it over 800 yet ?
I havn't looked recently , but it was approaching 700 last time I did and had been climbing steadily the more they investigated it .
So Tex , as that isn't just a media figure , do you consider it a problem yet ?

[scooter_the_shooter]

Yes! the USA is torturing the poor people who defend their nation, The american mercs are cutting the freedom fighter's hands off! Sense I am a yankee I Decided to find the nearest a-rab I could and beat him, hook a car battery up to his scrotum and cut one of his toes off every hour! Time to go steal some oil!....after I feed his hands to the dogs while he watches!


In all seriousness, I dont think torture is in much(official) use by the USA. Unless you count sleep deprivation and other interrogation techniques of that nature. But we can't control what every guard does when no one is watching.

[doc_bean]

yes, the question is just how widespread it is, and how cruel it ireally gets.

[rory_20_uk]

When someone in the administration tries to define orgn failure as where torture starts something must be up - why else so insanely severe?

Then we move on to the murkier USA-isn't-doing-it-but-allies-are. Is that OK? Giving to an organisation possibly USA backed, but seperate from the USA.

How people can be so dismissibe of sensory deprivation amazes me. Do they have no idea what it must be like?

[Tribesman]

In all seriousness, I dont think torture is in much(official) use by the USA. Unless you count sleep deprivation and other interrogation techniques of that nature.
Thats the thing Ceasar , the US government does count it as such , when other countries do it .
So if they think it is when others do it then it also must be when they do it .
No two ways about it , if something is wrong it is wrong , it can not only be wrong when it is someone else doing it .

Sense I am a yankee I Decided to find the nearest a-rab I could and beat him, hook a car battery up to his scrotum and cut one of his toes off every hour!
Ummmm , that was a little bit embarrasing when the good ol' patriotic yankee got caught running his own torture chamber in Afghanistan wasn't it .

[Joker85]

In all seriousness, I dont think torture is in much(official) use by the USA. Unless you count sleep deprivation and other interrogation techniques of that nature.
Thats the thing Ceasar , the US government does count it as such , when other countries do it .
So if they think it is when others do it then it also must be when they do it .
No two ways about it , if something is wrong it is wrong , it can not only be wrong when it is someone else doing it .

Would you mind actually posting specifics when you claim the United States government says something. I would like to see the context and the exact words used.

You've done this before and when called about it you dodged the question and escaped the thread.

In a thread a while ago you stated according to specific United States statutes the war in Iraq was illegal. When I asked you to provide them, you dodged and left.

So in the future it would be helpful to actually provide the original evidence you use to make your opinions and interpretations, rather than simply stating your interpretations as fact.

[Tribesman]

Would you mind actually posting specifics when you claim the United States government says something.
Thats simple Joker , what report does the US government now produce every year , about every foriegn country and their human rights record ?
Those for 2005 were released at the start of this month .
Try the Department of your government that deals with foriegn things

In a thread a while ago you stated according to specific United States statutes the war in Iraq was illegal. When I asked you to provide them, you dodged and left.

Dodged and left .
errrrr you wrote " kelloggs ? wheat flakes ?crunchy nuts ?" or some such thing .
I replied "well done you got it first time"
Do you understand yet ?

As a decent upstanding citizen Joker , you really should know about your government , its treaties and its workings , its your duty

[Joker85]

Would you mind actually posting specifics when you claim the United States government says something.
Thats simple Joker , what report does the US government now produce every year , about every foriegn country and their human rights record ?
Those for 2005 were released at the start of this month .
Try the Department of your government that deals with foriegn things

In a thread a while ago you stated according to specific United States statutes the war in Iraq was illegal. When I asked you to provide them, you dodged and left.

Dodged and left .
errrrr you wrote " kelloggs ? wheat flakes ?crunchy nuts ?" or some such thing .
I replied "well done you got it first time"
Do you understand yet ?

As a decent upstanding citizen Joker , you really should know about your government , its treaties and its workings , its your duty

Well I can't prove a negative. If you state "x treaty/agreement/report/law says such and such" it becomes your duty to produce that when asked, or admit you are making it up.

So again, would you mind producing the document/quote instead of your interpretation of those things? I'm sure you have them readily available since you stated with certainty what they said. So it shouldn't be a problem. :)

As for the Cornflakes thing, I thought it was just something random you said, I wasn't aware you were answering my question with a riddle. But, since I am bad at them, feel free at any time to enlighten me with the "American statute" that you were referring to in the other thread. In non riddle form please. ;)

[Tribesman]

Joker , I don't normally do links , go to the State Dept website and read its human rights reports .
While you are in a government site go to the treaties page and look up Kellogg , its on page 4 of the current treaties of the US .

[Joker85]

Joker , I don't normally do links , go to the State Dept website and read its human rights reports .
While you are in a government site go to the treaties page and look up Kellogg , its on page 4 of the current treaties of the US .

If you will not give a link (not sure why) then you can give the quote(s). I'm not going to go scouring through treaties and reports looking for some vague reference to something that could have possibly been the thing you were interepreting as such and such.

Again, this is not difficult. You made a claim that the report said something, you're now being asked to provide the quote that led you to state that.

If you can't do that, then it is dishonest to make statements of fact based off of your interpretations that you are either unwilling or unable to produce.

[Reenk Roink]

Well, actually, Tribesman doesn't do links...

It's his thing, he's actually started a thread with no link and needless to say, it got closed quick because nobody knew what the hell it was about...

It's quite cool in an annoying way...

[Tribesman]

Well, actually, Tribesman doesn't do links...
I do sometimes , not often .
Though come to think of it I did provide Rabbit with a link to the US treaties page when I thought he would be too busy finding the World Banks poverty reports .
Perhaps Joker could ask Redleg , he seems to have every treaty ever written on warfare and its conduct on his favourites menu , probably under Avalon Project

[Redleg]

Well, actually, Tribesman doesn't do links...
I do sometimes , not often .
Though come to think of it I did provide Rabbit with a link to the US treaties page when I thought he would be too busy finding the World Banks poverty reports .
Perhaps Joker could ask Redleg , he seems to have every treaty ever written on warfare and its conduct on his favourites menu , probably under Avalon Project

And a better understanding of them then Tribesman

To bad your up to your same old tactic of misrepresentation.

Just another attempt at the pot calling the kettle black it seems...

[Crazed Rabbit]

Well, its easier than honest debate.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

To bad your up to your same old tactic of misrepresentation.

Under the pact is war legal or illegal Red ?
Errrrr ....ummmmm ... illegal isn't it , no misrepresentation there , its still on the books isn't it .

[Duke John]

For the people who think that torture (waterboarding is) is ok since that is what happens during war, do you have any concerns about your soldiers? Do you care if they blown apart, after all that is what happens during war? Would it anger you if you hear stories of your country's soldiers being tortured? Should we care at all about the safety of soldiers? In a war people get killed so as long as the mission is carried out we shouldn't think about the amount of casualities? It's war, right?

[Ironside]

Less than 5 min search after the Human Rights link Tribesman refered to.

State Department's 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices
Haven't red through that one though, it would probably take a few days.

The other one was harder. Is it the Kellogg-Briand Pact you refer to Tribesman? It seems to be still in force according to the US department (link for that on the bottom of the page).

[Redleg]

To bad your up to your same old tactic of misrepresentation.

Under the pact is war legal or illegal Red ?
Errrrr ....ummmmm ... illegal isn't it , no misrepresentation there , its still on the books isn't it .

Nice attempt - but that was not the misrepresentation.

And war is legal - you might want to check out the part about defense....


Torture is a different subject from the legality of war.

[Tribesman]

And war is legal - you might want to check out the part about defense....
I see Red , so in the case that joker referred to Iraq attacked the US .
errrrr....nope

Less than 5 min search after the Human Rights link Tribesman refered to.

State Department's 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices
Haven't red through that one though, it would probably take a few days.

I havn't read through it yet either Ironside . There are lots of countrys in the world , so far I have only read Iraq ,Iran . Saudi , Pakistan , Israel + its added section , Cuba and Ireland .
Afghanistan , Venezuela , Britain and Nepal are next on the things to read list .

[Redleg]

And war is legal - you might want to check out the part about defense....
I see Red , so in the case that joker referred to Iraq attacked the US .
errrrr....nope

Misrepresentation of the statement once again. You are having a problem, and it seems that it is sailing right over your head.. Edit: I will give you a clue if its to tough for you to figure out...


Again look at the legality of war as it relates to defense - not what joker stated...

Systemic Torture is not warfare, even though it might or might not occur during a war.