MTW diplomacy trouble

[fredrick]

In several campaigns I've played as the HRE I get to a point where my empire is stable and I have a good income. I start preping for a crusade and one of my allies (spain, italy, hungary, poland) goes to war with me and none of my allies stay on my side. So instead of going on a crusade my trade routes fall apart and I'm forced to abandon my crusade and defend the empire on at least three fronts . Any ideas on how to peacefully avoid this?

A couple questions of diplomatic regard:

What are good ways to make peace? I can't ever get the AI to cease-fire.
What are good ways to encourage an alliance?

I've assumed it's a good idea to get princesses from other nations to marry my heirs so that they can get an early start on producing offspring. If so whats a good way to convince nations to marry off their princesses?

thanks,
fredrick

[Martok]

Exactly how big is your empire, fredrick--i.e., how much of the map do you control? I ask because once you reach a certain size (usually around a third of the provinces, give or take), no one will be your friend anymore. The moment you reach that "critical mass", everyone else starts to gang up on the Big Guy--you! Even if you're not *that* big, you're still at a disadvantage, as smaller factions usually have an easier time of getting allies. Unfortunate, but true.

Also, what is your Emperor's influence at? Because if it's 5 or lower, one often has a hard time securing alliances and/or royal marriages. Generally, you want your influence to be at least 6; and even then it may not be enough. Ideally, an influence rating of 7 or higher is what you want for your faction leader.

[fredrick]

I have Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and the British Isles. I did not expand eastward but I hold all of western europe. I hold Aragon and recently aquired Valencia (from the moslem faction down there) but thats as far as I am into Spain.

[Ludens]

Nobody likes the big guy, and nobody likes agressors (even though they were only aggressive in self-defense), so with your big, expanding empire you will have trouble getting alliances. Compounded to this is that the A.I. has almost no sense of self-preservation: if you are big and threatening they don't like you and won't ally or make peace, even though you armies are sitting on their doorstep.

Or maybe it is because you have big armies sitting on their doorstep, since this seems to make A.I. factions suspicious. I find it harder to get an alliance with a faction that I am having an arms race with. Off course, it is only to be expeted that you have huge armies on the border with a faction you are at war with, but logic is not the A.I.'s strongest side. Also, someone has reported that agents on enemy territory reduce the chance of getting an alliance, but I have never tested this.

You are right about princesses, BTW: they do increase the chance on early offspring. The most certain way of getting a foreign bride for your princes is waiting for an A.I. faction to propose an alliance, refuse, and send an emissary after one of their princesses. I also sometimes get a princess from a long-time ally, but you shouldn't count on this.

Welcome to the .Org, .

[fredrick]

Well I wasn't aware of the influence attribute and my king has only 4. I've got a couple messages that I'm the most advance. I've also had a few that I have the largest income so I'm surprised it's only 4.

How do I bolster my influence?

[Ciaran]

Good question, I always thought winning battles helped. I suppose a sucessful crusade does the same, on a larger scale, and having the biggest army around wouldn´t hurt, either. I´ve never paid much attention to my King´s influence. If he´s newly crowned his influence is a bit weak, but it grows over time.

As for your allies, MTW has a nice and simple rule: the one who wins the first battle keeps his allies. The AI, however knows this rule as well, so often you´ll see what I like to call the "Naval Incident" strategy. As you can´t much influence naval battles, the AI loves to start a war not by sending an army into your territory but to attack one of your ships. There´s not much you can do about it (which makes it a bit frustrating at times), but still, it´s good to know.

[Vlad The Impala]

Your king gains a point of influence for every two (or three, not exactly sure) provinces you conquer.

[Martok]

Your king gains a point of influence for every two (or three, not exactly sure) provinces you conquer.

Influence goes up for every 2 provinces you conquer/bribe. Aside from that, successful Crusades/Jihads are about the only other way to increase one's influence.

[The Stranger]

Influence goes up for every 2 provinces you conquer/bribe. Aside from that, successful Crusades/Jihads are about the only other way to increase one's influence.

fighting battles does increase the loyalty of generals. atleast if they win. and if your king wins battles he also gains influence...i thought so

[Martok]

fighting battles does increase the loyalty of generals. atleast if they win. and if your king wins battles he also gains influence...i thought so

I guess I've never really paid much attention to that, so you could very well be right, Stranger. I wouldn't even know about kings gaining influence that way, as I rarely let them fight battles that often (unless it's still early in the game). I've had too many problems where half my empire rebels simply because my faction leader actually engaged in combat....

[The Stranger]

yeah i know. but i usually have him fight the early battles cuz if the king has great skills than his heirs have that 2 and heirs usually command my armies

[Martok]

Same here. Like I said in my previous post, I'll let my faction leader fight battles if it's still fairly early on in the game (for much the same reasons as yourself). After a few decades or so, however, I take him off the front lines and just have him "tour" my lands. By then, my empire is usually large enough that I have to be careful to minmize the risks of civil war/mass rebellion. In my games, very few of my faction leaders ever get to personally fight battles after the first 50 years.

The only exception to this rule is if my king is worthless, and I therefore send him on a suicide attack--in which case I've obviously decided civil war is preferable than letting him continue to sit on the throne anyway.

[fredrick]

wheres the risk of mass rebelion come from? the king dieing in battle?

[Martok]

wheres the risk of mass rebelion come from? the king dieing in battle?

No one's quite sure if this is a bug or if it's a feature, but the basic problem is this: If your faction leader is in a battle where your side is the *attacker*, the computer treats your king as being away "on campaign" (doesn't matter if he's off Crusading/Jihading, or if he's just right next door to your capital putting down some local bandits). Since your faction leader isn't there "in country" to manage affairs of state, a number of provinces (often times a whole bloody pisspot full!) may decide that now is a good time to throw off the imperial yoke and rebel en masse.

Now generally this isn't much of a problem in the early part of the game. I'm not sure if this is because it's time-coded, or if it's simply because your empire isn't big enough yet early on. Smaller factions can usually let their king/sultan/emperor fight as many battles as they want without any real penalty. Once you reach a certain size, however, it's generally a bad idea to let your king get involved in combat *unless* you're the defender; then it doesn't seem to really matter.

[Ciaran]

I´d consider it a feature, after all, while campaigning he´s usually not that easily accessible as he were if he sat in one of his palaces. And I don´t think it´s time coded; I´ve played often with the - notoriously rebellious - HRE, and sending the Emperor into a battle is definitely not recommended.

[Martok]

I´d consider it a feature, after all, while campaigning he´s usually not that easily accessible as he were if he sat in one of his palaces.

I lean toward it being a feature as well (as opposed to a bug), but I don't like to assume such things. It does make sense, though. Your faction leader is going to be harder to get a hold of if he's off campaigning for the summer, than if he's at home holding court.

And I don´t think it´s time coded; I´ve played often with the - notoriously rebellious - HRE, and sending the Emperor into a battle is definitely not recommended.

I kind of suspected as much, but it's good to hear that confirmed. Thanks Ciaran!

[fredrick]

In my current campaign as HRE my crusade failed and rebellion broke out. I was prompted with a dialog to choose sides. My King was safely at home albeit with a influence of 4. Is this the same type of rebellion that happens when the king goes into battle?

[Peasant Phill]

Yes it is, the dreaded civil war.

Choose that side you support wisely, your king might not be worth backing up.

[El Diablo]

Rather enjoying the more "subtle" arts of diplomacy (assassins), I find it frustrating trying to get the Assassins valour up to a level where they have a chance to cause some carnage (to generals or heirs).

I am not sure if it is my vanilla MTW or what but even assassins created in Syria (granted I was egypt and had conqured Syria) did not have the valour 2 as hinted at in other threads.

Any idea on,

1. How best to use assassins,

2. How gain valour easily,

(do you lose influence when assassins get caught/killed?)

[Ludens]

I am not sure if it is my vanilla MTW or what but even assassins created in Syria (granted I was egypt and had conqured Syria) did not have the valour 2 as hinted at in other threads.

The valour bonus in Syria was only introduced with VI, unfortunatly.

1. How best to use assassins,

2. How gain valour easily,

You have to valour them up before using them on real targets. There are several ways to do this. For example, put them in a province with a port or a border province, but without a border fort, and he will catch enemy spies and assassins. Off course, it may be useful to station a spy there as well, just to make sure none slip through. Ports usually work like magnets for enemy agent, so I recommend stationing them there. Secondly, you can practice them on your own emissaries. This is rather costly, but emissaries are cheaper than assassins. You can also use your own spies and assassins as a target, but I think this rather a waste. Still, some players claim assassin duels are a very good way of valouring up. Thirdly you can practice them on hostile agents in your own provinces, but be aware that the A.I. knows when you target its pieces and will withdraw them to a province with a border fort when they are not on a mission. Keep your assassins away from border forts until they are at least level 5 (and even then they still can get caught).

(do you lose influence when assassins get caught/killed?)

Not influence, but that faction is not going to like you, even though the assassin was not intended for them.

Welcome to the Org, BTW .

[Devastatin Dave]

MTW's diplomacy system is not very good so I hardly use it. Sure, I'll waste my time with making alliences and stuff, but it's best to concentrate your efforts on steamrolling the map.

[El Diablo]

Thanks for the help Ludens.

That would also probably explain a few of my generals getting "snuffed out" every now and then. I try and get to border fort in my provences ASAP but some still slip through. Will leave a few spies/assassins to mop up trouble.

Oh and thanks ofr the welcome!!!

[Martok]

You can also train a unit of peasants, and then have your assassin "practice" by repeatedly killing off the unit leader until you get the assassin valoured up to level 5-6. I personally don't care for this method, as it is considered to be a pretty cheesy way of valouring up assassins, but it can be quite effective.

[Mooks]

Sometimes a certain faction will take a liking to you. I was denmark in the early ages, and me and france shared a common enemy (HRE) and I just continualy married his princesses to mine and mine to his, at least 10 princesses went back and forth within 25 years. And influence has a affect on rebellion, though of all the times iv played, iv NEVER realized that taking the king away from the country will increase the chance of rebellion ( I always play on expert)

Another thing...No matter how many provences you have, or how influencal you are. Its much much more harder to gain princesses later game. Theres 3 danish princesses just sitting there...and nothing. (Spain never gives away princesses)

Somebody marry a princess to your prince (incest) and test and see if the son develops the trait inbred.

(cross eyed babys arent funny)

[Ludens]

Somebody marry a princess to your prince (incest) and test and see if the son develops the trait inbred.

Someone once tried this for several generations, but without any apparent ill consequences. The inbred vices are probably random.

[El Diablo]

Some might ask if European royal families have been trying to get the "inbred" vice for the past 1000 years.

Some of them were nothing short of loopy.

[macsen rufus]

Inbreeding vices seem to affect generals that spend too long in one province, which is really annoying when you need to keep a good general guarding a vulnerable border for a few years!

[Mooks]

The TW games are screwed up in one section in many. If you dont keep on the move and keep attacking somebody, then your royal line and some of your generals will turn weak. I dont know why, but everyone in your family becomes loony and the stats go way down, and your generals become euntrapinors, or greedy.

[Ludens]

The TW games are screwed up in one section in many. If you dont keep on the move and keep attacking somebody, then your royal line and some of your generals will turn weak. I dont know why, but everyone in your family becomes loony and the stats go way down, and your generals become euntrapinors, or greedy.

It is true that warfare, especially offensive warfare, is usually good for the quality of your commanders, but the bloat effect you described doesn't really kick in until you have conquered 60% of the map (in M:TW) or own over 100.000 denarii (in R:TW). In S:TW there is no such think: in fact one of the problems of the game is that there is no penalty associated with have conquered most of the map, so it becomes very easy to take out the last opponents.

[The Stranger]

when you start making alot of money. Bad traits kick in every where. there is barely a way to fight corruption. fired all my corrupt generals and assigned new gouverners for those provinces. next year they were all corrupt