Spreading Freedom and Democracy

[rotorgun]

That's not quite the case. Athens also supported and even installed tyrants and oligarchies when it suited her (cf. US support and sponsoring of right-wing dictatorships). Real politics, classical style. I fail to see how they were deluded by democracy? Both Athens and the US discovered that 'spreading democracy' was not always in their best interests and often created more problems than it solved.

Quite right, but I wasn't saying that Athenians deluded themselves by their style of government. I meant that they deluded themselves into using the excuse that they were only spreading their ideals as a pretext for war, rather than admitting to themselves that it was bald-faced imperialism. I was making a comparison to the current US actions in the east. I oftimes feel that many are deluding themselves in the US in a similar fashion. Why not just call it what it is?

As for Mytilene, a right-wing coup d'etat occurs in one of her valuable and strategically important Aegean allies, sponsored by her great enemy Sparta. Her reaction was quite natural by the standards of the day. All powers respond to protect their interests if they are able.

Agreed, but didn't she sort of sacrifice her own ideals in the process? Many in her assembly argued that this was the case in the debate preceeding the vote to take such an action.

Good post.

[Red Peasant]

Agreed, but didn't she sort of sacrifice her own ideals in the process? Many in her assembly argued that this was the case in the debate preceeding the vote to take such an action.

Good post.

The debate was concerned with the punishment to be inflicted after suppressing their opponents on the island (initially way out of proportion), not their own right to intervene in their own sphere of influence. Thucydides is showing the degradation of human morality during war, as can be seen with the Spartan decision at Plataea and the Athenians also at Melos.

[rotorgun]

The debate was concerned with the punishment to be inflicted after suppressing their opponents on the island (initially way out of proportion), not their own right to intervene in their own sphere of influence. Thucydides is showing the degradation of human morality during war, as can be seen with the Spartan decision at Plataea and the Athenians also at Melos.

Of course. After going back and reviewing Thucydides I realise that I was in error before. Still, the fact that they were in such a debate brings to mind the debates over torture and wether it is legal to keep the non combatant prisoners in Guantanemo. Surely, although Thucidides does not tell us so, it does reveal that there was probably no universal support for intervention in the first place. The fact that some where concerned about the punishment implies that there were "Hawks" and "Doves" among them. Didn't they decide initially to raise the city, then later repented that decision, and sent a fast vessel to stop the sacking only just in time?