My Saudi Students

[Tachikaze]

These days I am amused but disappointed in the stereotypes perpetuated by Westerners talking about people of the Middle East. The words they use are charged with emotions, political/religious viewpoints, and, most importantly, ignorance. Words and phrases like, Islamist, terrorist, backward, veils, close-minded, hatred, and suicidal dot every discussion about Muslims or the Middle East.

Being a teacher of students from Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Kuwait, and other nations of the faith and region, I get to meet the very people that are so slandered and disparaged.

My Saudi students don't, in any way, resemble the worst negative stereotypes I hear.

Religious
They certainly are religious. It's amazing to me that Christians are admired when they are pious, but Muslims get less respect as being "fundamentalist" and following faith blindly. In actuality, one should admire their devotion to their god, which is, after all, the same god that Jews and Christians follow. A substantial number of Christians don't even go to church once a week, let alone pray five times a day.

Every day, five times a day, the Muslim students in my school wash their hands, feet, and faces, find an empty classroom (usually mine), put down a rug, turn towards Mecca and pray together. A husband and wife pray at a separate time and room.

This selfless activity touches me. While the rest of us are out satisfying our hungry stomachs, they take the time to pray patiently in a communal way before eating.

Sexism
We have had Saudi women in the school. There are two now. Forget what the media and popular Western opinion is of Saudi or Muslim women. They wear modern, sometimes sexy, fashion (one of them keeps her hair covered), are outspoken and candid, and behave, in every outward way, equal to the Saudi men. One is a business woman, the other a chemistry major.

I have assigned essays about a variety of political topics about women and almost all the men support women's rights and equality.

Politeness
You'll never meet anyone more polite than Saudis. They run neck-and-neck with Japanese and Koreans. The always speak respectfully and do little things, like insist elders walk through a door first and do a small knock on the door jam when they enter a room. Each morning they meet us with bright greetings and warm smiles.

Ten years ago, most of the Saudis did not extend as much politeness to the female faculty as the men. But this is now no longer the case.

Things have been changing in the last few years. The new generations are not the image of their grandparents. King Abdullah, far more liberal than his predecessors, is promoting the opening of Saudi students' minds, sponsoring the students at my school to study English in many nations all over the world.

While even the brightest students will sometimes say something that shows a religious contrast to modern science (that humans are not animals for instance), we have had wonderful poltical and social discussions with the European, Asian, and South American students that had great insights and compassion for humanity.

So, while wild-eyed, West-hating, fundamentalist youth that bomb city streets get all the press, remember that they do not represent their fellow countrymen or other Muslims any more than the people who assassinate abortion doctors and bomb government buildings in Oklahoma in the US represent Americans.

[discovery1]

We have had Saudi women in the school. There are two now. Forget what the media and popular Western opinion is of Saudi or Muslim women. They wear modern, sometimes sexy, fashion (one of them keeps her hair covered), are outspoken and candid, and behave, in every outward way, equal to the Saudi men. One is a business woman, the other a chemistry major.

I have assigned essays about a variety of political topics about women and almost all the men support women's rights and equality.

All the men where? All your male students? Or all male Saudis?

[doc_bean]

Sexism
We have had Saudi women in the school. There are two now. Forget what the media and popular Western opinion is of Saudi or Muslim women. They wear modern, sometimes sexy, fashion (one of them keeps her hair covered), are outspoken and candid, and behave, in every outward way, equal to the Saudi men. One is a business woman, the other a chemistry major.

I have assigned essays about a variety of political topics about women and almost all the men support women's rights and equality.

But how do they threat women in practice ? My girlfriend works with a couple of Iranians in her lab and she says they just won't listen to the advice of women. The only way you can get them to pay attention to what you say is to suggest that a male professor has suggested it.

[Devastatin Dave]

Good post Tachi, every Arab I've ever met were nice and pleasent. Every society has their share of jerks. Still the nicest folks to me are Koreans.

[Divinus Arma]

I prefer the term "boomski".


That's a joke.



Seriously though, I agree with the intent of this post. It is sad. But it is even sadder that mainstream muslim organizations refuse to condemn terrorist acts.


Here's a funny story: A family friend of mine is Jewish and was recently divorced. He dated an Iranian-American shortly after. Until she stated that Israel should be destroyed and that Jews are evil, except for him. He found that just a little awkward.

I feel bad for the majority of Muslims who are victimized by their own people who perpetrate stereotypical behavior.

I also feel bad for black people who are victimized by their own ethnic members who embrace stereotypical black urban culture.

And Republicans who are racist white trash also piss me off, because they make the rest of republicans look like trash.


I have no prob with ethnicity. White, black, brown, yellow, it matters not. We all bleed green. It's culture that defines us, and that is a matter of nurture, not nature. Racists of any color make me sick to my stomach. They are truly misguided evil SOBs.

[Reenk Roink]

Seriously though, I agree with the intent of this post. It is sad. But it is even sadder that mainstream muslim organizations refuse to condemn terrorist acts.

I can actually get you a list of hundreds of Muslim organizations, from liberal, to orthodox, and even the radical, that condemned terrorist attacks. I can get you hundreds of statements from Muslims, from Orthodox clerics to the ordinary Abdullah that condemn terrorist attacks. Or you could google it. www.google.com

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Well, I would be interested in riots protesting terrorist attacks.

[Reenk Roink]

Well, I would be interested in riots protesting terrorist attacks.

Well, I'm sure they would be interested in riots protesting the civilian deaths in their countries due to our bombs...

After all, most of the war protests are small (opposition to it is large) and focus on getting our troops out of there...

[Divinus Arma]

I would be even more interested in them turning on their own extremists and engaging in a civil war to purge themselves of their cancer.

[Reenk Roink]

Civil War? I'm sorry, but al-Qaeda is much too small of an organization and controls no land. It would have to be a..."war on terror". But it also must be done ideologically which is why this response by an important Muslim scholar was such a pleasing find on google:

http://www.mereislam.info/articles/D...A-Al-Akiti.pdf

*it's long, and I skimmed through it, but it is a good read*

Also, there was this interesting interview with Sadr in Newsweek, that firebrand Iraqi cleric, who earlier was on our hitlist because he was able to hold back our military quite effectively, and only backed down when his superior Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani wagged his finger. He was talking about how he classified the Sunni's into two groups:

1) The majority who are his brothers in Islam
2) The takfiri's who follow Zarqawi and kill Iraqis and need to be fought

See, I think that the Muslim world in general is doing it's best to shed the unfair 'terrorist' label...

If this isn't enough evidence, than I don't know what is...

[Louis VI the Fat]

I feel bad for the majority of Muslims who are victimized by their own people who perpetrate stereotypical behavior.

I also feel bad for black people who are victimized by their own ethnic members who embrace stereotypical black urban culture.

I also feel bad for Republicans.

I agree, Divinus.

[Divinus Arma]

I agree, Divinus.

Oh you wascally wabbit. You spinster you. That is jutht dethpicable. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. Wakka wakka wakka!

[Romulas]

I think we would all agree that the stereotypes are indeed view points born of ignorance. We all develop our opinions based on personal experience or the experiences of others. I dare say, is it possible that having the opportunity to meet and interact with people from the Middle East in our communities or in our classrooms does not give an all inclusive religious, sexism, politeness medal. Now, is there anyone who has been over there to experience the Middle East and its stereotypes of Westerners and just HOW polite they might be. How many of us can walk through the lands of the MIddle East and come out alive. Compared to how many of the Middle East not only walk through our lands, but have been welcomed into our communities and schools. Comparing Oklahoma City bombing and abortion doctor murders to daily terrorist bombings is stretch.

So I say that before I wave the wand of forgiveness, show me more that politeness here in the West.

Romulas

[Ice]

Well, I'm sure they would be interested in riots protesting the civilian deaths in their countries due to our bombs...

After all, most of the war protests are small (opposition to it is large) and focus on getting our troops out of there...

You are going to fit in well at U of M.

[Reenk Roink]

I think we would all agree that the stereotypes are indeed view points born of ignorance. We all develop our opinions based on personal experience or the experiences of others. I dare say, is it possible that having the opportunity to meet and interact with people from the Middle East in our communities or in our classrooms does not give an all inclusive religious, sexism, politeness medal. Now, is there anyone who has been over there to experience the Middle East and its stereotypes of Westerners and just HOW polite they might be. How many of us can walk through the lands of the MIddle East and come out alive. Compared to how many of the Middle East not only walk through our lands, but have been welcomed into our communities and schools. Comparing Oklahoma City bombing and abortion doctor murders to daily terrorist bombings is stretch.

So I say that before I wave the wand of forgiveness, show me more that politeness here in the West.

Romulas

A little while back (1970's-1980's), we were welcomed and treated like honored guests...

That changed, and there is a reason...

You are going to fit in well at U of M.

With the 'fair and cool kids group' . But not with the kids who think religion is a drug (and the only drug they won't try... ).

[Tachikaze]

I meant in my first post that the Muslim men (also all Saudi in this case) wrote about their desires for equality with women. And it wasn't 100%. One had some reservations.

DevDave:
I also like the Koreans very much.

[Xiahou]

Tachikaze, not to disagree overmuch with your point about stereotypes, but surely you can't make a judgement based on your experiences with a handful of wealthy, liberal(comparatively) students who have been sent to America to learn with that of your average Middle-easterner. I dont know that that's anymore valid than the stereotype you're trying to put down.

If you're trying to say not every Muslim is a terrorist, then I think you're preaching to the choir here- but is there much else to be gleaned from this?

[LeftEyeNine]

I would be even more interested in them turning on their own extremists and engaging in a civil war to purge themselves of their cancer.

I absolutely have no idea whether KKK was opposed by civilians the way you expected from moderate Muslims. Were they?

Also it's nice to hear about your view on other different ethnic/religious groups, however make sure that you will never get what cartooning Muhammed could mean to Muslims (omit the devastative reaction). And that's a matter of cultural difference indeed.

[Fragony]

I prefer the term "boomski".


That's a joke.

Hey, that's my joke(tm)

I am sure they can be great people, but there are differences that make it hard to communicate. We do have completily different cultures, friction is best avoided.

[English assassin]

We have had Saudi women in the school. There are two now. Forget what the media and popular Western opinion is of Saudi or Muslim women. They wear modern, sometimes sexy, fashion (one of them keeps her hair covered), are outspoken and candid, and behave, in every outward way, equal to the Saudi men. One is a business woman, the other a chemistry major.

Not wishing to be contentious here, but this is the same Saudi Arabia where women were until very recently prohibited from driving? Where a woman's testimony in court is given half the weight of a man's? I hope these sexy women felt OK about women not being allowed to stand or vote in Saudi's elections to municipal councils? Where, according to Amnesty International:

Domestic violence attracted national and international attention when in April Rania al-Baz, who had been beaten by her husband, made her ordeal public to raise awareness about violence suffered by women in the home in Saudi Arabia. A television presenter and mother of two, Rania al-Baz was attacked by her husband on 4 April at their home in Jeddah, apparently for having answered the telephone. She suffered 13 fractures to her face. Her husband then put her in his van and reportedly dumped her unconscious at a hospital in Jeddah, claiming that she was a victim of a traffic accident.

When Rania al-Baz’ disfigured face hit newspaper front pages it forced into the open the many severe forms of discrimination that facilitate and perpetuate violence against women in Saudi Arabia, and the issue of impunity. The case was the first of its kind in the country to proceed under the public eye in a criminal court and result in conviction and punishment. Rania al-Baz revealed that her husband had a history of violence against her but that she could not leave him for fear of losing custody of her children. When she had tried to leave him he prevented her from seeing her children for two months. Divorce in Saudi Arabia is primarily the man’s prerogative. Women’s rights in this regard are so limited that they are almost impossible to exercise. To gain a divorce, women, unlike men, must prove harm or fault by the spouse, be able to pay compensation, face the risk of losing custody of children, and be able to convince an all-male judiciary. The problems are compounded by severe restrictions on women’s movement, total dependency on male relatives and social stigma attached to divorce. Women activists, writers, journalists and lawyers called for legal and judicial changes to end such discrimination and combat the impunity enjoyed by perpetrators of violence against women.

You met some nice people. I'm glad. But I'm not sure what it tells us about Saudi Arabia.

Oh, and two Saudi women in the school, and how many Saudi men? Also two? or do more Saudi men than women get sent abroad for education...

[rotorgun]

I have also had an experience with some Saudi "students" when I was attending a military school at Ft Eustis, VA back in 1999-2000. A group of these Saudi Military personnel were my nieghbors for a time. They were indeed very polite and cordial, and I was even invited to dinner once. They (all males) treated me very well for an infidel, even allowing me to express my religous views, and teaching me about theirs. One of the men was considered an Iman, and he was the most devout, and courteous. Everything was going well until, after dinner, a rather brusk and seemly character showed up. He seemed to be in charge, as they all deferred to him. He seemed a little high strung to me, and soon he showed his true colors when he invited me outside for a little chat to ask me if I could get him any drugs.

I was dumbfounded at first, and then gathered my wits. This man was asking me to compromise myself and risk my over twenty year career in the military so that he could get high. I immediately recognized my position, and to this day feel that he was trying to get me compromise myself so that I could be used in a little espionage game. Oh yes, this is a common approach by spies, and I was thankful that I had some training to recognize it as such. Instantly, my old habits from the Cold War era kicked in, and I politely refused his request and made my excuses to my guests. The next day I reported this activity to my OIC, and he must have reported it to the CID, for it was soon after that this individual was sent home to Saudi Arabia.

Oh the Saudis are very polite indeed. Especially when they are trying to ellicit information or recriut an agent in their holy cause.

If they would only turn over Osama Bin Laden and crew, renounce all forms of Islamic extremism, and send troops to fight along side my comrades in Iraq and Afghanistan, then I could find it in my heart to trust them again. I find it amazing that you have even agreed to teach them in this country. If it were up to me, they wouldn't be allowed here at all.

PS: The events I described really did happen, just as sure as the World Trade Centers were destroyed. Please feel free to read this post to your "students" any time. Perhaps it will put it into perspective for them.

Allah Akhbar!

PS edit: I should have looked a little closer at your Avatar and signature quote. It would have explained so much.

[Devastatin Dave]

PS edit: I should have looked a little closer at your Avatar and signature quote. It would have explained so much.

Man, you should read the rest of his posts/threads.

[Tachikaze]

Some of you mentioned Iranians. I can't comment on Iranians. I would say that their nation's policies are more closed than most, if not all, of the other nations in the region.

Some of you also referred to the lack of woman's suffrage and other restrictions. These are government policies, not necessarily the attitudes of the people. When some of you discuss the US, you distinguish government policy from the people. You should do the same for the Saudis.

How many Saudi women and men in my school? Two women and nine men. A better ratio than the number of women to men in the US Senate.

Keep in mind that the situation was very different in 1995. There were no Saudi women studying here at all then. The behavior of men towards the female US teachers was very disciminatory. In ten years, things have changed a lot. People's attitudes about Saudis and other Middle Easterners are often based on simplistic, outdated stereotypes, based mostly on hearsay and firmly-fixed opinions.

It's the practice of governments to present an image of an enemy that is alien and unfamiliar to their citizens. They emphasize the differences, and ignore the similarities. They do not want to us identify or sympathize with them.

The US government began a war with Iraq, and supposedly with terrorists, and reinforces this alien image of Iraqis and other peoples associated with them, such as Saudis. There is sometimes truth to the pictures they draw, but they are exaggerations that support their agenda.

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

These young men and women are not as alien as certain people would like you to believe.

[Don Corleone]

So, a small group of people that may or may not be infiltrating our country by means of your university are actually polite to you, perhaps in an effort to disarm your suspicions, and you sieze on this as evidence that Saudis are the most polite people on the planet and in fact, Americans are just bigots? You kill me Tachi. You're as constant as the Northern Star. In any dispute, in any issue, it's always the USA at fault. I'll give credit where credit is due... we need consistency in these days, even consistently wrong.

[Xiahou]

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

But that only makes sense. The best schools are in the US- people from all over the world want to study here. Saudis are rich on oil, but they're smart enough to know it won't last forever. So, they're taking small steps to move beyond that- steps like paying for their elites to come to the US and learn our culture and business practices.

It's just the smart thing to do in their own interests. Im not going to laud them for it anymore than Id criticize them for doing so.

[Tachikaze]

I have also had an experience with some Saudi "students" when I was attending a military school at Ft Eustis, VA back in 1999-2000. A group of these Saudi Military personnel were my nieghbors for a time. They were indeed very polite and cordial, and I was even invited to dinner once. They (all males) treated me very well for an infidel, even allowing me to express my religous views, and teaching me about theirs. One of the men was considered an Iman, and he was the most devout, and courteous. Everything was going well until, after dinner, a rather brusk and seemly character showed up. He seemed to be in charge, as they all deferred to him. He seemed a little high strung to me, and soon he showed his true colors when he invited me outside for a little chat to ask me if I could get him any drugs.

I was dumbfounded at first, and then gathered my wits. This man was asking me to compromise myself and risk my over twenty year career in the military so that he could get high. I immediately recognized my position, and to this day feel that he was trying to get me compromise myself so that I could be used in a little espionage game. Oh yes, this is a common approach by spies, and I was thankful that I had some training to recognize it as such. Instantly, my old habits from the Cold War era kicked in, and I politely refused his request and made my excuses to my guests. The next day I reported this activity to my OIC, and he must have reported it to the CID, for it was soon after that this individual was sent home to Saudi Arabia.

Oh the Saudis are very polite indeed. Especially when they are trying to ellicit information or recriut an agent in their holy cause.

If they would only turn over Osama Bin Laden and crew, renounce all forms of Islamic extremism, and send troops to fight along side my comrades in Iraq and Afghanistan, then I could find it in my heart to trust them again. I find it amazing that you have even agreed to teach them in this country. If it were up to me, they wouldn't be allowed here at all.

I can't vouch for the kinds of people you hang out with. My experience with Saudis goes back eleven years and covers many more people that can fit around a dinner table in one anecdotal situation. I would say, from what you have written so far, that my pool of representatives is larger than yours, and more current. They are also not soldiers.

It sounds like you would not trust an entire nation of people based on your experiences with one group of soldiers. Would you base your view of Americans on one group of torturers from Abu Graib?

By the way, have you renounced the US invasion of Iraq?

[Redleg]

Some of you also referred to the lack of woman's suffrage and other restrictions. These are government policies, not necessarily the attitudes of the people. When some of you discuss the US, you distinguish government policy from the people. You should do the same for the Saudis.

Hmm - it seems you are wanting a standard applied that you yourself often don't apply when discussing political issues.

How many Saudi women and men in my school? Two women and nine men. A better ratio than the number of women to men in the US Senate.

And that some how makes the ratio better?

Keep in mind that the situation was very different in 1995. There were no Saudi women studying here at all then. The behavior of men towards the female US teachers was very disciminatory. In ten years, things have changed a lot. People's attitudes about Saudis and other Middle Easterners are often based on simplistic, outdated stereotypes, based mostly on hearsay and firmly-fixed opinions.

Care to guess what my first hand experience with dealing with the Saudi male in Saudi Arabia was? Or how about the numerous times I conducted training with Saudi officers in several service schools? Or how about several other first hand accounts from people who have returned from doing military missions in Saudi Arabia?

What you are seeing Tachikaze is a bubble. Find out the social-economic status of your students, and you might discover the validity of your point.

It's the practice of governments to present an image of an enemy that is alien and unfamiliar to their citizens. They emphasize the differences, and ignore the similarities. They do not want to us identify or sympathize with them.

Saudi Arabia is a long time ally of the United States. (an ally who uses us completely for their own benefit - same as we do them)

The US government began a war with Iraq, and supposedly with terrorists, and reinforces this alien image of Iraqis and other peoples associated with them, such as Saudis. There is sometimes truth to the pictures they draw, but they are exaggerations that support their agenda.

So far one of the few statements you have stated that I agree with.

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

This is not a new program by the way. Back in 1983-1987 I went to college at a school that had several Saudi's and other Middle-East students. In fact most of them were very likable as individuals, I enjoyed visiting with several of them on occassion.

These young men and women are not as alien as certain people would like you to believe.

Correct, I have absolutely no problem with Saudi's or anyother individual, but don't attempt to fool yourself nor me with your comprision. You are most likely dealing with the upper echelon of the social-economic class of Saudi society. A bubble does not mean its false nor does it mean its true.

[Vladimir]

I would like to reinforce Rotorgun's statement. A disproportionately large number of foreign students, mostly from the middle east, mostly from the Kingdom of Saud, are sent here to collect information. It's been going on for a while and takes advantage of the general naïveté attitude college students and professors have on the world. These are the same type of people that wondered: "Why do they hate us?" after 9/11.

To counter that I believe that everyone should be judged as an individual and treated accordingly. However one of the greatest threats to our security, is/are foreign students.

[Redleg]

I can't vouch for the kinds of people you hang out with. My experience with Saudis goes back eleven years and covers many more people that can fit around a dinner table in one anecdotal situation. I would say, from what you have written so far, that my pool of representatives is larger than yours, and more current. They are also not soldiers.

LOL mine goes back 20 years..... comparing apples to oranges again Tachikaze

It sounds like you would not trust an entire nation of people based on your experiences with one group of soldiers. Would you base your view of Americans on one group of torturers from Abu Graib?

How about experiences with the culture. Where there is a compound where the people gather to watch the sentence of the convicted criminal being carried out. Wether it be a simple punishment of a hand being cutoff or the head.


Or how about dragging shop keepers out of the store and beating them if the store was not closed at the first call to prayer.

Oh wait how about the males in Saudi Arabia not helping female soldiers when they went to purchase an item...

I got more....

By the way, have you renounced the US invasion of Iraq?

Have you renounced your American citizenship yet?

It seems you have not read some of Rotorgun's posts are you wouldn't of wrote such a statement.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have traveled quite a bit of Morocco, and a bit of Tunisia. I have daily contact with Muslims. I have a Moroccan colleague too.

I found Morocco alien, strange. I did not grasp a lot of it's social codes, even with there being little of a language barrier. And I mean alien in a neutral way, not necessarily demeaning. It is a country I could never live in, I could never accustom myself to it.

The western Muslims range from complete jerks to some really cool people. Though, to be perfectly honest, most of the latter are the ones that are best integrated. There is no shortage of modest, polite, smart Muslims. Of liberated women. Of Muslims who got themselves a life and contribute to society in a meaningful way.