Mercenaries in EB

[mcsquared]

Will the final version of EB have a more diversified selection of mercenaries? In the beta, there seem to be the same few units available everywhere.

[O'ETAIPOS]

What you see now is about 3/5 planned units. remember only that many regional units are available as "recruitable mercs" instead "hireable".

[Ano2]

I would actually do away with the mercs completely and make them all recruitable. They would still be called mercs, but by recruiting them you make them able to be retrained, something desperately needed by merc based factions such as Carthage.

All it means is putting the mercs currently in mercs, into the recruitment pools. A fair bit of work, but not difficult :)

[orwell]

Will/are samnite heavy infantry ever be recruitable, instead of just hireable?

[Slider6977]

Samnite Heavy infantry are recruitable, just not by Rome. Which is weird because they are the only faction that can recruit samnite spearmen with a level 1 govt. So you figure they would be able to recruit the heavy infantry at the very least with a 3 or 4 lvl gov't in southern italy.

[Avicenna]

Could the system be like RTR? The mercs will be available for retrainment, as long as you have control of a province where they are available. Hiring mercs would be more expensive, but it would be quick and they would have some limited amount of experience. They would be ideal for quickly amassing an army to deal with a threat, and then could be kept on as part of the army to make it more diverse and flexible.

[stalin]

something desperately needed by merc based factions such as Carthage.

Carthage uses Mercs? Their recruitables are awsome even on MIC3

[Slider6977]

something desperately needed by merc based factions such as Carthage.

Carthage uses Mercs? Their recruitables are awsome even on MIC3

Technicially speaking, the recruitable units Carthage has are actually merc units. Elite African Infantry, Pikemen, numidian cavalry and javelinmen, all the iberian units they can recruit, and even to some degree lybian spearmen and heavy spearmen are all types of historical mercs hired to fight for Carthage. So that comment doesn't really make sense to me. Even the gallic cavalry, Gaesatae infantry, and other barbarian infantry that carthage historically hired as mercs are trainable, as long as you are in the right provinces. So as of right now, I believe a lot of the merc system is working as intended.

[khelvan]

"Mercs" as defined by the RTW engine have no ties at all, and can be hired by anyone. Mercenaries in the ancient world were generally different from the modern idea. For instance, while they fought for money most would fight only for a certain group or cause, rather than just anyone.

So most of the "mercenaries" in the ancient world are in game as trainable units, because it better reflects in reality for whom they fought.

[HamilcarBarca]

I think that the mercs system should be improved. Carthage can recruit Greek foot and cavalry in North Africa, but not the Gallic, Ligurian or Iberian mercenaries that were equally important in its mercenary armies.

Of course a family member in a fleet can sail around the western Mediterranean collecting such mercs, and bring them back to Carthage for re-equipment, but that is impracticle.

And what happened to the Balearic slingers? There are none.

I think a greater array of mercenaries should be available to Carthage. And in exchange several of the 'recruitable' troop types should be lost.

While North African provinces (Numidian tributaries) can realistically provide Numidian skirmishers and cavalry, and Spanish provinces (Iberian subject kinglets) provide recruitable Iberian troop types, I think the rest of the troops should be changed into genuine mercenaries. In particular I am speaking of the African phalanx and elite African troops.

Carthaginian citizens should only be able to be recruited as;
* fleets
* Liby-Phoenician spearmen
* Civic cavalry
* Sacred Band phalanx

The other excellent troop types should be found in North Africa as mercenaries, rather than as recruitable soldiers. As mercenaries, they would not be re-trainable. Units could only be replenished to full-strength by hiring new mercenaries. That is both accurate for Carthage AND good for game balance. Remember, the AI can't retrain either.

H.

[Urnamma]

Well, then Carthage would never really be able to get any elite units via experience. Most of her troops are mercenaries, but we allow them in the training system as an abstraction.

You will see Ligurians, Celts, Numidians, Sardinians, Balearics, and definitely more iberians fairly soon ;)

[paullus]

And if the Carthaginian's Libyan elites were mercs, any ol' faction could recruit them. Better to have them as recruitables. And I personally like the idea of sending a family member sailing around to choice locations to pick up mercenaries when needed (though it can take a while). They did that back then, so why not in EB?

[QwertyMIDX]

There's also the problem that 'mercs' in the RTW engine can't have any relationship with certin faction, anyone can hire them. So there couldn't be mercs for the Carthies. In EB speak lots of trained troops are actually mercs.

[HamilcarBarca]

Some points in reply;

1) Carthage only had a monopoly on its sources of mercenaries so long as it had a monopoly on access to those places. So, for instance, Carthage was the only power able to recruit Iberian and Numidian mercs so long as no other power could project power into those geographic regions. The moment Rome arrived in Spain and North Africa, Iberian and Numidian troops were recruited into their armies. So - let other factions access merc pools in North Africa and Spain ONCE THET GET THERE. That's realism.
2) Mercs can gain in experience. And they can be replenished by being amalgamated with other/new mercs of the same type. That's good enough. I don't think that a company of mercs on campaign should be able to be rienforced except by adding new mercenary recruits to their ranks. How can a group of Numidian auxiliaries be retrained in Carthage? Which citizens of Carthage can join a Numidian force to bring it up to strength? None.
3) URNAMMA - you said Sardinians soon? Please, tell me more. Punic Sardinia is something of an historical specialty of mine.

H.

[QwertyMIDX]

The issues of regional influence and control work as well for units regional units (that serve as mercs) as for mercs in the RTW sense. It's kind of a moot point. Also, to make them mercs we have to assume they would have fought for EVERYONE else, something our Iberian FC, for example, doesn't want.

[Slider6977]

As has already been stated, there is no way to get around the 'recruitable merc' system. When looking at carthage in particular, you have a situation where the majority of the african, iberian, and gallic mercs were "monopolized" by Carthaginian generals, such as Hannibal, as has already been said in this thread. To center on the african and gallic forces specifically, the fact is that the most of the units represented in the game never fought for Rome once their respective lands were conquered. Gaesatae are not a "traditional" merc because it is accurate that they not be allowed to fight for Rome. The same with Elite African infantry, Iberian heavy cavalry, and other gallic mercs. This situation is unique, and is refected as so in the game. And we must remember that this is all non-negotable, as the game engine is simply not complex enough to handle any other type of merc system.

[Urnamma]

Some points in reply;

1) Carthage only had a monopoly on its sources of mercenaries so long as it had a monopoly on access to those places. So, for instance, Carthage was the only power able to recruit Iberian and Numidian mercs so long as no other power could project power into those geographic regions. The moment Rome arrived in Spain and North Africa, Iberian and Numidian troops were recruited into their armies. So - let other factions access merc pools in North Africa and Spain ONCE THET GET THERE. That's realism.
2) Mercs can gain in experience. And they can be replenished by being amalgamated with other/new mercs of the same type. That's good enough. I don't think that a company of mercs on campaign should be able to be rienforced except by adding new mercenary recruits to their ranks. How can a group of Numidian auxiliaries be retrained in Carthage? Which citizens of Carthage can join a Numidian force to bring it up to strength? None.
3) URNAMMA - you said Sardinians soon? Please, tell me more. Punic Sardinia is something of an historical specialty of mine.

H.

In regards to point 1, think about it for a moment. The Libyans, and Liby-Phoenicians, among others, were equipped en masse from Carthaginian stores, paid for by carthaginian estate system, etc. Without Carthage as a distinct and dominant political entity, those mercenary classes dried up. The Romans et al will still have access to Iberian and Numidian mercenaries, and even a unit of libyans, but the carthaginian mercenaries were and are unique to carthage.

Our 'population' includes non-citizens such as women, libyans, liby-phoenicians, Greeks, etc in regards to carthage.

In regards to 3, they're Nuraghi. A robe, spear, and shield, along with a leather skullcap. You may seen the unit soon (hint hint).

[HamilcarBarca]

I am very interested in Punic Sardinia, and have done quite a deal of reading about the Nuraghic society there.

I have long believed that Sardinia (and Corsica) need their own unique troops. I have recently returned from a vacation in Sardinia, and while there bought a pair of terrific new books, these being;

* Maurizio Corona, La rivolta di Ampsicora. Cronaca della prima grande insurrezione sarda 215 a. C., Akademia, Cagliari
* Angela Demontis, Il Popolo di Bronzo. Abiti, armi e attrezzature dei bronzetti Sardi in 100 shede illustrate, Condaghes, 2005.

The book by Maurizio Corona includes some great colour plates reconstructing the Punic, Sardo-Punic and Nuraghic soldiery that fought Rome during the revolt of Ampsicora in 215BC. Of particular interest is the depiction of the Punizised Sard and a pair of 'Goatskins', as Livy so quaintly called the unconquered Nuragic tribesmen of the mountainous north-eastern and eastern half of the island.

The book by Angela Demontis offers modern reconstructions (both military and civil) of the Nuragic peoples of Sardinia, based on the archeological evidence that can be found in the stone statues and bronze votive statuettes.

I can happily send you scans of this artwork if you have an appropriate e-mail address that can receive large files (.tif).

The Corsican-Sardinian provinces should have, in my view, a handful of unique troops types;

1. the Punicised Sardi spearman (generally recruited from the towns and estates of the Sardo-Punic landowners of the lowlands, that is, the south-west of Sardinia); these troops would be cheap militia types, spearmen;
2. the 'Goatskin' swordsman; the Nuragic peoples used long slashing swords, and simple armour, including horned-round helmets, and pectoral plates;
3. the 'Goatskin' javlineer & archer levy; the Nuragic peoples were accomplished guerilla fighters, and their most common troops were these light missile troops and skirmishers, including archers;
4. the Nuragic/Torrean elite warriors; the Nuragic and Torrean tribes had a warrior elite, well attested to in the art of the period; the elite were more heavily armoured, with metal-and leather corselets, helms with larger, more elaborate cattle horns, and they fought with small shields and 1 meter-long swords; these 'storm troops' would have comprised the tribal military elite; they should be expensive to reflect their rarity.

There are no cavalry troop types found in these islands.

The Nuragic 'Goatskin' warriors would generally have been drawn from the Iliensi, Galillensi and Corsi tribes. These tribes were both anti-Carthaginian and anti-Roman. From around 500BC (when Punic conquest strips the Nuragic tribes of their most fertile lands) Nuragic culture enters its final phase, the so-called "survival phase", which only ended after a long resistence to Rome.

In a similar manner, the native tribes of Corsica resisted Rome, to the point that Rome devastated the island and enslaved the native peoples in great numbers.

H.