Mercenaries in EB

[khelvan]

"Mercs" as defined by the RTW engine have no ties at all, and can be hired by anyone. Mercenaries in the ancient world were generally different from the modern idea. For instance, while they fought for money most would fight only for a certain group or cause, rather than just anyone.

So most of the "mercenaries" in the ancient world are in game as trainable units, because it better reflects in reality for whom they fought.

[HamilcarBarca]

I think that the mercs system should be improved. Carthage can recruit Greek foot and cavalry in North Africa, but not the Gallic, Ligurian or Iberian mercenaries that were equally important in its mercenary armies.

Of course a family member in a fleet can sail around the western Mediterranean collecting such mercs, and bring them back to Carthage for re-equipment, but that is impracticle.

And what happened to the Balearic slingers? There are none.

I think a greater array of mercenaries should be available to Carthage. And in exchange several of the 'recruitable' troop types should be lost.

While North African provinces (Numidian tributaries) can realistically provide Numidian skirmishers and cavalry, and Spanish provinces (Iberian subject kinglets) provide recruitable Iberian troop types, I think the rest of the troops should be changed into genuine mercenaries. In particular I am speaking of the African phalanx and elite African troops.

Carthaginian citizens should only be able to be recruited as;
* fleets
* Liby-Phoenician spearmen
* Civic cavalry
* Sacred Band phalanx

The other excellent troop types should be found in North Africa as mercenaries, rather than as recruitable soldiers. As mercenaries, they would not be re-trainable. Units could only be replenished to full-strength by hiring new mercenaries. That is both accurate for Carthage AND good for game balance. Remember, the AI can't retrain either.

H.

[Urnamma]

Well, then Carthage would never really be able to get any elite units via experience. Most of her troops are mercenaries, but we allow them in the training system as an abstraction.

You will see Ligurians, Celts, Numidians, Sardinians, Balearics, and definitely more iberians fairly soon ;)

[paullus]

And if the Carthaginian's Libyan elites were mercs, any ol' faction could recruit them. Better to have them as recruitables. And I personally like the idea of sending a family member sailing around to choice locations to pick up mercenaries when needed (though it can take a while). They did that back then, so why not in EB?

[QwertyMIDX]

There's also the problem that 'mercs' in the RTW engine can't have any relationship with certin faction, anyone can hire them. So there couldn't be mercs for the Carthies. In EB speak lots of trained troops are actually mercs.

[HamilcarBarca]

Some points in reply;

1) Carthage only had a monopoly on its sources of mercenaries so long as it had a monopoly on access to those places. So, for instance, Carthage was the only power able to recruit Iberian and Numidian mercs so long as no other power could project power into those geographic regions. The moment Rome arrived in Spain and North Africa, Iberian and Numidian troops were recruited into their armies. So - let other factions access merc pools in North Africa and Spain ONCE THET GET THERE. That's realism.
2) Mercs can gain in experience. And they can be replenished by being amalgamated with other/new mercs of the same type. That's good enough. I don't think that a company of mercs on campaign should be able to be rienforced except by adding new mercenary recruits to their ranks. How can a group of Numidian auxiliaries be retrained in Carthage? Which citizens of Carthage can join a Numidian force to bring it up to strength? None.
3) URNAMMA - you said Sardinians soon? Please, tell me more. Punic Sardinia is something of an historical specialty of mine.

H.

[QwertyMIDX]

The issues of regional influence and control work as well for units regional units (that serve as mercs) as for mercs in the RTW sense. It's kind of a moot point. Also, to make them mercs we have to assume they would have fought for EVERYONE else, something our Iberian FC, for example, doesn't want.

[Urnamma]

Some points in reply;

1) Carthage only had a monopoly on its sources of mercenaries so long as it had a monopoly on access to those places. So, for instance, Carthage was the only power able to recruit Iberian and Numidian mercs so long as no other power could project power into those geographic regions. The moment Rome arrived in Spain and North Africa, Iberian and Numidian troops were recruited into their armies. So - let other factions access merc pools in North Africa and Spain ONCE THET GET THERE. That's realism.
2) Mercs can gain in experience. And they can be replenished by being amalgamated with other/new mercs of the same type. That's good enough. I don't think that a company of mercs on campaign should be able to be rienforced except by adding new mercenary recruits to their ranks. How can a group of Numidian auxiliaries be retrained in Carthage? Which citizens of Carthage can join a Numidian force to bring it up to strength? None.
3) URNAMMA - you said Sardinians soon? Please, tell me more. Punic Sardinia is something of an historical specialty of mine.

H.

In regards to point 1, think about it for a moment. The Libyans, and Liby-Phoenicians, among others, were equipped en masse from Carthaginian stores, paid for by carthaginian estate system, etc. Without Carthage as a distinct and dominant political entity, those mercenary classes dried up. The Romans et al will still have access to Iberian and Numidian mercenaries, and even a unit of libyans, but the carthaginian mercenaries were and are unique to carthage.

Our 'population' includes non-citizens such as women, libyans, liby-phoenicians, Greeks, etc in regards to carthage.

In regards to 3, they're Nuraghi. A robe, spear, and shield, along with a leather skullcap. You may seen the unit soon (hint hint).