Aztec pics!!!!

[Wandarah]

i cant imagine there will be limitations on the transport of troops to the new world. i imagine you'll just be swamed with stacks of native troops.

[Trax]

I think pistols were luxury items back then I doubt many conquistadors used them.

BTW when was the wheellock invented? I cant imagine the matchlock used for pistols

[Furious Mental]

As I understand it was invented in the 16th century, so yeah I guess you could have conquistadors galloping about with wheel lock pistols. In gameplay terms, probably not much use but still, cool.

[Gealai]

If IIRC lances where used very successfully by the Spanish when they raided in Mexico and in the south of North America - a territory often ideal of cavalry. Maybe I will able to get the original text of which I'm thinking.

Lances where the matter of choice of all European powers until the heavy cavalry started to use increasingly pistols against the everpresent pikemen.

Given that I can not see the most distant parent of the stout and hardy european landsknecht/pikemen walking around in America I wonder why the lancers should have discarded their lances which proved themselves in over twothousend years of cavalry warfare

[Mithradates]

I think it is important to state that however good the quality of the aztec obsidion weapons, were they not used more to mame and injure. Were they not more non lethal so they could take prisoners?

[The Spartan (Returns)]

i like those jaguar warriors.

[Avicenna]

I think it is important to state that however good the quality of the aztec obsidion weapons, were they not used more to mame and injure. Were they not more non lethal so they could take prisoners?

Yes. In fact, they managed to capture Cortez himself after wounding him I think, but they had to bring him to Tenochitlan's temple (to the Sun god) for sacrifice, and so gave him more time, which eventually allowed him to escape due conquistadors saving their leader's life.

[IrishArmenian]

This makes me think they already have the add-on in mind.

I hope it includes the factions from Viking Invasion! I just played it and I like the Irish, no, not just becuase I'm part Irish, its becuase you start out in danger. You have England and the Vikings right next to you and you have to get tough quick!

[Scott]

They look good, and will probably be fun, but my concerns, and the concerns of others too I think, have been that their implementation on the campaign game might be strange and/or unbalanced, and that with the limited number of factions in the engine it'll mean removal of a more important faction in Europe or the Middle east, where there are already a bit too few factions to make it realistic and fun. Diplomacy with only 21 factions is for example not as fun as diplomacy with some 50 factions, pacts, tight alliances, backstabbing and buildup or destruction of a rumor of being trustworthy. With 21 factions it's difficult to find out who is a backstabber, and difficult to use diplomacy and internal wars to turn opponents against each others, and alliances don't mean that much.

There probally putting more factions in this mod. I don't think there will be a 21 faction limit like RTW

I wonder if Inca's will be availble?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Coyotes? Aren't those from Australia?

You are talking about Dingos - Coyotes are native only to North and Central America.

A blurb from some site selling a replica Coyote Guard statue:

A deity of powerful influence, the plumed coyote was once hailed by the Aztec people as the guardian of artisans. Angel Ceron crafts this extraordinary replica of the original pre-Hispanic piece. The Aztecs also regarded this feathered coyote as the loyal companion of Tezcatlipoca, Lord of Night and of Wars, inspiring the formation of the coyote-warrior batallion.

Link

[Grifman]

I think that the player should be able to land only a small number of troops in the New World and should be able to train only native auxiliaries. There should also be big penalties for wearing heavy armour, fighting in pike hedges or from horseback and using missile weapons in jungle.

Except for coastal Mexico, there aren't jungles, and the Spanish didn't fight them there for the most part.

This would prevent the Aztecs simply being steam rollered by thousands of musketeers, cannon, pikemen, armoured knights etcetera.

Even though this is exactly what happened? What happened to historical accuracy? How else did a few hundred Spanish conquer an empire amassing thousands of warriors except by steamrolling them with musketeers, pikemen, cannon and heavy cavalry? Have your read anything about the Conquest?

[Furious Mental]

Duhhhh haven't you read anything about the conquest of the Aztec empire? Cortez required native auxiliaries to beat the Aztec forces, even with them having been severely depleted by disease. And if CA has decided to put the conquest of Mesoamerica in the game they may as well make it a worthwhile challenge.

[Horatius]

Except for coastal Mexico, there aren't jungles, and the Spanish didn't fight them there for the most part.

Aztecs are south of that, the Mayans are the ones who fought at Mexico.

Even though this is exactly what happened? What happened to historical accuracy? How else did a few hundred Spanish conquer an empire amassing thousands of warriors except by steamrolling them with musketeers, pikemen, cannon and heavy cavalry? Have your read anything about the Conquest?

Historically way off. The Spanish Conquistadors were only a few hundred in number, they relied as much on their many native friends as they did on their superior weapons and armour. The Tlaxcala especially wanted to be saved from Aztec domination.

I thought the suggestion you critiqued was a great one, it would be both historically accurate and make the game challenging but not too challenging. The Conquistadors although a minority in their own armies made the difference between victory and defeat with their horses and weaponry, and that is what would happen in Mental's suggestion, since you would have some musketeers and cannons etc etc in your army, you just won't win easily with thousands of them.

Imagine how easy a time Cortez would have had if he had thousands rather then hundreds of men.

[grinningman]

Coyotes? Aren't those from Australia?

No, Coyotes are from America - e.g. Wiley Coyote

Maybe you're thinking of dingos.

[Perplexed]

And to the guy who quoted Wikipedia, it's not the bible...very far from it.

And the bible is a source of accurate information?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

well the history in the bible is as credible as any ancient text as for the message, if you think that it (the message) is incorrect your view is more a matter of faith then an accepted historical fact

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

Courtesy of Lithuanian on the TotalWar.com forums.





These guys look awesome! I seriously don't think anyone can have any complaints on how these guys turned out.

Once this comes out if its moddable then im going to write an aar on the atzecs

[ghostcamel]

Really, i think the people complaining that they look wierd or silly dont realize just how different the style of fighting these warriors used. Their fighting was a ritualized, spiritual affair. Not the true blood and guts, kill em all, scorched earth empires of Europe. In Europe, warfare was strictly about killing the other guy and listening to the lamentations of their women. There the art of war progressed more rapidly and logically. Spiritual matters follow their own logic.

I can imagine some of these warriors having the same outlook as jihadist bombers of today. Maybe they didnt plan on living through the battle, at least a portion of them. These were people who willingly sacrificed themselves in ritual ceremonies, it doesnt seem out of the realm of possiblity. Perhaps someone more versed in their psychology could add to what ive said.

Besides, as some have pointed out already, a lightly armored, nimble and fast, warrior moving silently through a steamy jungle would have an easier time than knight stumbling around in full plate.

All i can say is they look about a million times better than the pajama-soldiers of RTW.

[econ21]

Really, i think the people complaining that they look wierd or silly dont realize just how different the style of fighting these warriors used. Their fighting was a ritualized, spiritual affair. Not the true blood and guts, kill em all, scorched earth empires of Europe.

That is my impression from the little I've read about the victories of the Conquistadors. People have put it down to technology etc, but to me it seems a lot to do with fighting styles. It's like if you had a few Special Forces guys in a bar room brawl - they'd probably rip through your average civilians. Maybe I am doing the Aztecs a great injustice, but accounts of battles with them remind me a little of the ritual tribal wars you hear about in Papua New Guinea etc. They just seemed to have been playing a whole different game to that practiced in Europe since Alexander and even before.

[Watchman]

European shock cavalry had yet to convert to using pistols instead of lances as the main shiock weapon (that developement took until late 1500s, AFAIK, and required a fair bit of refining on the wheellock system). Anyway, cavalry pistols of the period wouldn't have survived all that well in the logistical conditions the Conquistadors operated in - gunpowder supply was ever a pain and hence chiefly restricted to the few cannon they had, and wheellocks need specialist craftsmen to repair if something breaks as all too often happened - and moreover the simple lance was perfectly sufficient for tearing holes in the practically defenseless lines of native infantry. Muzzle-loader pistols are only marginally faster to reload than comparable long-arms (ie. you can bet on spending a minut or half with each) and Conquistador cavalry was altogether too few in number to be able to produce effective volley fire. Lances and swords, however, took no reloading and as long as they didn't break were always ready to kill the next guy in line.

Plus of course cavalry cold-steel shock action is just plain bloody scary to receive, especially if you have nothing to counter it with.

[Murfios]

I kinda new to this, but can someone please tell me what this is? Is it a Mod fot BI or new rtw game? I dont what to offend anyone, im just new.

[econ21]

I kinda new to this, but can someone please tell me what this is? Is it a Mod fot BI or new rtw game?

This forum is devoted to the forthcoming new TW game, Medieval 2 Total War. This thread is about the depiction of Aztecs in the game - at a certain point, European powers will be able to cross the atlantic and fight the Aztecs.

[Murfios]

Thanks econ21 for your time

[Matty]

I think you lot are spending way too much time overthinking this. They look cool in their leopardskin pyjamas and motorcycle helmets. I used to have some pyjamas like that when I was a kid.

What I want to know is will the Aztecs be playable and if so, will they be able to invade the Old World? Construction of human sacrifice temples in Paris would be cool. Sacrificing Frenchmen on them even better.

Discuss.

[Peasant Phill]

I don't think they will be playable and if they'll be playable they sure as hell won't be able to cross the atlantic.

[Slasher]

It would be interesting if CA added a complex research system, on the lines of HOI2 where you could choose to research naval things, for the Aztecs it would be on par on researched A Bombs in HOI2 eg. costly and long...but if a user chose to devote all thier time to it they could possibly down the track build sea worthy ships to make a crossing, but of course this would mean thier land troops would suck.....the Aztecs would be modded in eventually anyway so it would suck if they were stuck in the one place, Total War is in the end something of an alternate history simulation....

[Mithradates]

@ ghostcamel "here the lamentations of the women" isnt that from conan the barbarian??

[econ21]

@ ghostcamel "here the lamentations of the women" isnt that from conan the barbarian??

Yes, but he plagiarised it from Ghengis Khan.

[ByzantineKnight]

They are totally SWEET!! The only thing they could improve it by is to give them darker skin, because its not like living in a rainforest will give them European skin.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I think the Aztecs will be much like Egypt in RTW: it's sheer mass will present you with the most difficulty. Aztecs and Incas had for the most part a strong economy, combined with eager armies.

There will probably be some scripting included to partly recreate history, such as the social turmoil and a few plagues now and then. Also their units will be a lot cheaper then your European conquistadores or any other soldiers. This to enable the Native Americans to support vast armies and keep the European expeditions relatively small in numbers.

The AI might even be tweaked a little to increase the chance of getting ambushed when in American lands.

There might be a special Victory Condition for the Native Americans like bring the whole of South America under your firm rule and outlive the European factions for so long. Whereas the Europeans will have a more straightforward task such as conquer some 70 regions and destroy or outlive given factions.

This would I think balance both worlds to fit into a campaign without having gaily dressed merrily slaughtred push over faction swhich replaces a more serious threat.