Imperial Colonies throughout the world

[Aenlic]

They didn't really need the military, they just won over the natives I heard.

The Phoenicans did have some famous explorers such as Hanno, but I doubt that they could reach America with the ships of the dark ages. The Vikings did have a colony, but they got driven off by natives. (was it in Canada?)

The Chinese had also sailed to America long before Colombus, but they never bothered to have colonies. They just never had any wish to make an Empire.

The Vikings spent at least a couple of seasons in Newfoundland and possibly further south. The remains of a typical Norse settlement have been excavated in Newfoundland at L'Anse aux Meadows. The site had typical Norse ember pits and longhouses, as well as obvious Norse tools such as a soapstone spindle whorl and bronze pins. They didn't get along with the natives, however; and soon left. They called the natives skraelings in the sagas about Vinland. The sagas tell of Lief Erikson's brother Thorvald being killed by a skraeling arrow in Vinland.

On the subject of the Chinese exploration, Chinese admiral Zheng He is believed by some to have reached the west coast of the Americas; but there is no supportable evidence of such. He certainly sailed much of the Southwest Pacific and Indian Oceans and went as far as Africa in exploratory missions for the Chinese emperor. It's the sailing east to the Americas that is controversial.

The Phoenicians making it to America is more controversial still. Any storied Phoenician exploration of the Americas is pure supposition. They did manage to visit the British Isles, certainly; and possibly went down the west coast of Africa. In their ships, which were coastal traders, making an Atlantic crossing would be improbable at best.

[wolftrapper78]

The Phoenicians making it to America is more controversial still. Any storied Phoenician exploration of the Americas is pure supposition. They did manage to visit the British Isles, certainly; and possibly went down the west coast of Africa. In their ships, which were coastal traders, making an Atlantic crossing would be improbable at best.

Why improbable? The ancient polynesians could sail 4,000 miles from their South Pacific Islands to the Easter Island and Hawaii. So why couldn't the Phoenicians, with how much better ship technology they had, sail the two thousand miles from the edges of their empire in Africa to, say, Brazil. How is that improbable?

[Red Peasant]

The Phoenicians making it to America is more controversial still. Any storied Phoenician exploration of the Americas is pure supposition. They did manage to visit the British Isles, certainly; and possibly went down the west coast of Africa. In their ships, which were coastal traders, making an Atlantic crossing would be improbable at best.

Due to the nature of the wind systems as one rounds the Bight of Benin (i.e. leaving the Trade Winds route) as well as the Atlantic currents, I would surmise that it would probably have been easier for the Carthaginians to cross the ocean to Central or South America than it was to round Africa, which is a far more difficult enterprise. I'm sceptical about the latter.

[Red Peasant]

BTW, I'm not saying that they did cross the Atlantic!

[Avicenna]

So you're suggesting that they travelled close to either of the Poles or sailed around the large African-Asian-European landmass and then crossed the Pacific? Remember that the Phoenicans came from warm climes..

[Red Peasant]

Sorry, don't understand you! What's all this talk of the Pacific? I was only saying that it was possibly easier for the Carthaginians to cross the Atlantic than to sail round Africa, a claim which some make for the semi-mythical Hanno.

We know they got to the Canary Isles (Isles of the Blessed), which are fairly easy to reach as one exits into the Atlantic through the Pillars of Hercules. Natural Trade Winds and Atlantic currents can then take a ship relatively speedily to South America. However, fighting down the West Coast of Africa against contrary winds (or no winds!) is a whole different prospect. It took the Portuguese a long time by incremental steps, in far superior ships, to pull that achievement off.

[Aenlic]

Sorry, don't understand you! What's all this talk of the Pacific? I was only saying that it was possibly easier for the Carthaginians to cross the Atlantic than to sail round Africa, a claim which some make for the semi-mythical Hanno.

We know they got to the Canary Isles (Isles of the Blessed), which are fairly easy to reach as one exits into the Atlantic through the Pillars of Hercules. Natural Trade Winds and Atlantic currents can then take a ship relatively speedily to South America. However, fighting down the West Coast of Africa against contrary winds (or no winds!) is a whole different prospect. It took the Portuguese a long time by incremental steps, in far superior ships, to pull that achievement off.

I didn't say it was impossible, just improbable. Yes, the Pacific islanders managed great feats of navigation - in an entirely different kind of vessel, and their expansion across the Pacific was almost entirely one-way. The Phoenicians used shore-hugging coastal vessels which are entirely unsuited to crossing the Atlantic. The earliest ocean-going vessels capable of sucyh large ocean crossings were the Viking longships and the Polynesian large outriggers.

I don't know if you've ever been on the North Atlantic in a ship. It's nothing like coastal sailing. Even in the summer, during fair weather, swells can easily top 20 feet in mid-ocean. When I experienced it for the first time, I was in a 535 foot long ship - a big vessel. We still had 20-30 degree rolls in the middle of May. In August it was only slightly better, and then you face tropical storms.

The Phoenicians might have managed it - barely - going one way, if the north equatorial current and the northeast trade winds were perfectly favorable and they encountered no storms (tropical storms are likely in the summer, worse weather in the winter). They couldn't then get back. Not cross-current. Not without better ocean-going technology than they had in their coastal traders.

So, that's why I say it's improbable. Possible but unlikely.

[Red Peasant]

I agree with you completely Aenlic. I was trying to assert that a trip around Africa would have probably been even more difficult for the Phoenicians.