DevDave under demotion...

[Don Corleone]

Okay, I was a participant in the thread that I 'think' got DevDave the warning points that keep him out of the Backroom (and in fact, everywhere but the Entrance Hall).

In it, Idaho stated that Americans are a bunch of racists and that's all the border issue is, that we don't want brown people in our country. In true DevDave style, he let fly with a response from the heart, not the head, and got warned for an ad hominem attack.

Uhm, sorry, but if this is the entire exchange, then I cry foul. Granted, plenty might have happened in addition to what I'm aware of. Any chance we could get a ruling from the judges?

[GeneralHankerchief]

That might have been the point where he crossed the line, but I know there was one thread about a week ago where Dave pretty much questioned the merits of an English person involved in an American debate (instead of continuing the actual argument) that was deleted...

My guess is that it was a number of things.

[econ21]

I suspect the demotion was automated - a result of warning points exceeding a certain number (3?). TosaInu left the membership on a pretty tight leash. The upside is that demotions don't last long (2 days for first offense?). And warning points are wiped clean every 31 days.

On the substance of why DevDave got the warning points, as you say, one was a personal attack. There was also a reference to staff as goose-stepping which was just not smart. We can't really let such things go without the Org ceasing to be the civil place it usually is.

[Beirut]

It's very simple - refrain from calling mods "Goose Steppers" and mods will refrain from launching WP in the member's direction.

I made mistakes in that thread. I tried to correct them. But regardless of any mods mistakes, the members do not have carte blanche to go on abusive attacks when mistakes are made. The Admins, the PM system, and the Watchtower are all available for the members to discuss their grievances. Those are the appropriate places to seek a remedy to a problem.

[Don Corleone]

I missed the goose-stepping comment, but yes, of course, that would be out of line.

Please understand, I'm not saying "How dare you", I'm just asking why. I don't think anybody expects mods to be perfect, and frankly Beirut, admitting you've made mistakes gives you a lot of credibility in my book.

I think the sticking point that DevDave went so off the reservation over was the appearance of selective justice. I'm NOT saying that's what happened, I'm trying to explain his behavior.

Anyway, you folks are right, ad hominem attacks, against mods or other members, shouldn't be tolerated.

[Devastatin Dave]

My mistake was using Ser as an example in order to prove a point that it's wrong to call a group of people "racist, nazis, etc" simply by where they reside or their origin. When Idaho implied that Americans are racist because they want to secure their borders, then going a step further by implying that its because most of the illegals are "darkies" I was pissed. Then I went on the attack. My post was erased by Beirut (kind of like erasing the evidence) while Idaho's was left in place and with the support of Ser (Ser latter explained Idaho's own post!!!). That made me even more pissed. So I decided to try to prove a point. I called Ser a goose stepper. I figured if Idaho can call Americans racist, especially against people of darker skin and my post explaining that his country has a political party that is actually winning election while not even allowing non "white" people into their party along with some personal attacks, and the fact that this post was deleted. Ser was defending Idaho's post so since I couldn't go after Idaho I went after Ser. I shouldn't have done it and I should have known better that I would be punished severely while the person that started the whole deal had the support of the mods. When a mod is explicitly explaining another members generalization of an entire people it should be a clue that its a no win situation. I'm one that will take it the next level.

I'm sorry for the personal attacks I made on Idaho and Ser. Neither are racist or nazis and are outstanding individuals. I've never been one to get my points across the way I wanted to. I think very abstractly and I have problems conveying my messages and get very frustrated with my communication skills as any of you have read my posts know by now.

Beirut, I'm sorry for causing this much trouble for you AGAIN. I let my anger take over AGAIN. I fought the wrong fight knowing that the opinions of those in charge of moderation probably held the same opinion as Idaho's. Well, I can't think of anything else to say on this issue and can't think of anything else that I can say about my behavior. My online persona has issues I guess. I've complained enough about the moderation in the backroom and I need to accept the fact that over all its fair and that the reason I see "bias" is 99% my stubbornness and my own biases and enability to convey my messages in a coherent manor. I resort to attacks and snide remarks due to frustration and anger.

See you later.

[Ser Clegane]

while Idaho's was left in place and with the support of Ser (Ser latter explained Idaho's own post!!!)

[...]

Ser was defending Idaho's post.

I think you're mixing something up here...

[Devastatin Dave]

I think you're mixing something up here...

My bad Ser, it was Beirut that posted the explaination for Idaho. That makes my attack on you even worse. I'm truelly sorry.

"I stand ready to be corrected, but the "darkie" comment was a (nasty) tongue in cheek shot at US immigration policy, not at the United States per say." -Beirut

[econ21]

Dave, I think you are being unfair to Ser Clegane here. Idaho certainly does not think the mods were on "his side".

Instead, I think Ser and Beirut were acting consistently according to forum rules, which involve some rather subtle distinctions.

As mods, we don't like ad hominem attacks. So avoid calling each other racist. But you can of course say a policy, an idea or even a post is racist. Attack the ideas, not the man.

We also don't like derogatory generalisations about a whole people. Some generalisations about a people may be true - e.g. Americans are on average richer/taller/whatever than Vietnamese. But if the generalisations are not objectively measurable and are derogatory, they are best avoided. But criticising the policy of a country's government is acceptable. It's easy to confuse the two, but they are different in an important way.

Finally, racist labels for ethnic groups are best avoided, even if tongue in cheek or used ironically. They are inherently offensive. And on the internet, people can't always see if your tongue is in your cheek and unless people know you, they can't tell if you are being ironic.

Bottomline: Moderating on issues of race and on generalisation about groups of people is a minefield. The best advice is probably for everyone to tread very carefully - that's not a threat, just a plea to avoid us all getting blown up in the ensuring carnage.

[Ser Clegane]

My bad Ser, it was Beirut that posted the explaination for Idaho. That makes my attack on you even worse. I'm truelly sorry.

No problem ... I was just slightly confused and thought I might have missed something (I am always waiting for the day when I have to realize that I went on a drunken post rampage the previous evening )

P.S.: Great - I just noticed that the "Admin-appears-as-thread-starter-feature" went into action again - now it looks like a started a thread to pillory Dave...

[Devastatin Dave]

P.S.: Great - I just noticed that the "Admin-appears-as-thread-starter-feature" went into action again - now it looks like a started a thread to pillory Dave...

I don't understand...?

econ21, like I said, I believe that 99% of the problem is me, not the mods. I know its a hard job, especially dealing with people like me. I over reacted and I'm just trying to explain why since this thread is about the situation that happened. Maybe its better I don't try to explain my actions since I'm obviously not communicated my purpose well once again.

[Ser Clegane]

I don't understand...?

If you look at the thread overview page of the Backroom-Watchtower you will see that instead of Don I am listed as thread starter there ... makes it look like I started a thread to publicly announce your demotion...

(not a big problem ... just an observation of an annoying "bug")

[Devastatin Dave]

If you look at the thread overview page of the Backroom-Watchtower you will see that instead of Don I am listed as thread starter there ... makes it look like I started a thread to publicly announce your demotion...

(not a big problem ... just an observation of an annoying "bug")

Sorry Ser looks like you're getting it from all directions.

[Don Corleone]

I think you SHOULD publicly humiliate our favorite lil' troll here, Ser.

Just kidding. Glad to see Dave's demotion wore off fairly quickly. Dave, I'm going to have to go dig through my history books and find some references for you to autocracies that don't carry the same baggage as Nazi Germany. Even veiled references like goose-stepping can be pretty offensive, and for all you know, Ser and Beirut are Jewish.

For the time being however, an autocrats that 'wasn't the worst guy in history':
Ferdinand Franco in Spain (yes, the Spanish Civil war was terrible. But from about 1950 on, he wasn't that bad a guy).

You know, one funny sideline to all of this... go read Idaho's comments in the thread after you got demoted. He's wailing away about how Ser & Beirut have stacked the deck against him, and the whole Backroom is a propaganda machine for right-wing American politics.

I have a dream... one week of Idaho & DevDave moderating the backroom together... and every decision each makes MUST be ratified by the other... talk about social experiments...

[Don Corleone]

I think you SHOULD publicly humiliate our favorite lil' troll here, Ser.

Just kidding. Glad to see Dave's demotion wore off fairly quickly. Dave, I'm going to have to go dig through my history books and find some references for you to autocracies that don't carry the same baggage as Nazi Germany. Even veiled references like goose-stepping can be pretty offensive, and for all you know, Ser and Beirut are Jewish.

You know, one funny sideline to all of this... go read Idaho's comments in the thread after you got demoted. He's wailing away about how Ser & Beirut have stacked the deck against him, and the whole Backroom is a propaganda machine for right-wing American politics.

I have a dream... one week of Idaho & DevDave moderating the backroom together... and every decision each makes MUST be ratified by the other... talk about social experiments...

[Don Corleone]

Criminy! No edit in the watchtower!!! I decided that perhaps listing Ferdinand Franco as not all that bad would be pretty offensive to any Spanish Socialists we have floating around, and in the interest of peacekeeping, I was going to take it out, as Guernica in particular should keep him off my list. When you come right down to it autocrats of any flavor: Right -> Hitler, Mussolini, Franco or Left -> Stalin, Mao, Castro.... are pretty heinous.

[Beirut]

I have a dream... one week of Idaho & DevDave moderating the backroom together... and every decision each makes MUST be ratified by the other... talk about social experiments...

Ha! May I live to see that please.

Again, much of this is my fault for misinterpreting the context of Idaho's statement and then sticking to my guns about it. No excuses, I did a poor job.

Mind you, there is also no excuse for members going wankers in the threads due to poor moderating. A PM to the Admins or a thread - like this - in the Watchtower is the only way to go.

[Papewaio]

That idea of teaming up opposite political spectrums has been mentioned in the past...

[Devastatin Dave]

My little bottom is still red from the healthy spanking I recieved for being such a naughty little troll. You should see it when I'm wearing my little school girl outfit.

[English assassin]

My little bottom is still red from the healthy spanking I recieved for being such a naughty little troll. You should see it when I'm wearing my little school girl outfit.

There goes breakfast...

[edyzmedieval]

There goes breakfast...

And I've just finished eating...

[Redleg]

My little bottom is still red from the healthy spanking I recieved for being such a naughty little troll. You should see it when I'm wearing my little school girl outfit.

Should I let you see my leather strap?

[edyzmedieval]

Should I let you see my leather strap?

I'm breaking up the act...
Bye bye forums....

[Avicenna]

[KukriKhan]

So, we have finished business in this one. Thanks for all contributions.