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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    This is from the Wall Street Journal's Editorial page: Opinion Journal

    Revisionist History
    Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked.

    BY PETER WEHNER
    Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

    "Iraqis can participate in three historic elections, pass the most liberal constitution in the Arab world, and form a unity government despite terrorist attacks and provocations. Yet for some critics of the president, these are minor matters. Like swallows to Capistrano, they keep returning to the same allegations--the president misled the country in order to justify the Iraq war; his administration pressured intelligence agencies to bias their judgments; Saddam Hussein turned out to be no threat since he didn't possess weapons of mass destruction; and helping democracy take root in the Middle East was a postwar rationalization. The problem with these charges is that they are false and can be shown to be so--and yet people continue to believe, and spread, them. Let me examine each in turn:

    The president misled Americans to convince them to go to war. "There is no question [the Bush administration] misled the nation and led us into a quagmire in Iraq," according to Ted Kennedy. Jimmy Carter charged that on Iraq, "President Bush has not been honest with the American people." And Al Gore has said that an "abuse of the truth" characterized the administration's "march to war." These charges are themselves misleading, which explains why no independent body has found them credible. Most of the world was operating from essentially the same set of assumptions regarding Iraq's WMD capabilities. Important assumptions turned out wrong; but mistakenly relying on faulty intelligence is a world apart from lying about it.

    Let's review what we know. The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) is the intelligence community's authoritative written judgment on specific national-security issues. The 2002 NIE provided a key judgment: "Iraq has continued its [WMD] programs in defiance of U.N. resolutions and restrictions. Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of U.N. restrictions; if left unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade."

    Thanks to the bipartisan Silberman-Robb Commission, which investigated the causes of intelligence failures in the run-up to the war, we now know that the President's Daily Brief (PDB) and the Senior Executive Intelligence Brief "were, if anything, more alarmist and less nuanced than the NIE" (my emphasis). We also know that the intelligence in the PDB was not "markedly different" from that given to Congress. This helps explains why John Kerry, in voting to give the president the authority to use force, said, "I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security." It's why Sen. Kennedy said, "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." And it's why Hillary Clinton said in 2002, "In the four years since the inspectors, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability and his nuclear program."

    Beyond that, intelligence agencies from around the globe believed Saddam had WMD. Even foreign governments that opposed his removal from power believed Iraq had WMD: Just a few weeks before Operation Iraqi Freedom, Wolfgang Ischinger, German ambassador to the U.S., said, "I think all of our governments believe that Iraq has produced weapons of mass destruction and that we have to assume that they continue to have weapons of mass destruction."

    In addition, no serious person would justify a war based on information he knows to be false and which would be shown to be false within months after the war concluded. It is not as if the WMD stockpile question was one that wasn't going to be answered for a century to come.

    The Bush administration pressured intelligence agencies to bias their judgments. Earlier this year, Mr. Gore charged that "CIA analysts who strongly disagreed with the White House . . . found themselves under pressure at work and became fearful of losing promotions and salary increases." Sen. Kennedy charged that the administration "put pressure on intelligence officers to produce the desired intelligence and analysis."

    This myth is shattered by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence's bipartisan Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq. Among the findings: "The committee did not find any evidence that intelligence analysts changed their judgments as a result of political pressure, altered or produced intelligence products to conform with administration policy, or that anyone even attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to do so." Silberman-Robb concluded the same, finding "no evidence of political pressure to influence the Intelligence Community's prewar assessments of Iraq's weapons programs. . . . Analysts universally asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or alter any of their analytical judgments." What the report did find is that intelligence assessments on Iraq were "riddled with errors"; "most of the fundamental errors were made and communicated to policy makers well before the now-infamous NIE of October 2002, and were not corrected in the months between the NIE and the start of the war."

    Because weapons of mass destruction stockpiles weren't found, Saddam posed no threat. Howard Dean declared Iraq "was not a danger to the United States." John Murtha asserted, "There was no threat to our national security." Max Cleland put it this way: "Iraq was no threat. We now know that. There are no weapons of mass destruction, no nuclear weapons programs." Yet while we did not find stockpiles of WMD in Iraq, what we did find was enough to alarm any sober-minded individual.

    Upon his return from Iraq, weapons inspector David Kay, head of the Iraq Survey Group (ISG), told the Senate: "I actually think this may be one of those cases where [Iraq under Saddam Hussein] was even more dangerous than we thought." His statement when issuing the ISG progress report said: "We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities" that were part of "deliberate concealment efforts" that should have been declared to the U.N. And, he concluded, "Saddam, at least as judged by those scientists and other insiders who worked in his military-industrial programs, had not given up his aspirations and intentions to continue to acquire weapons of mass destruction."

    Among the key findings of the September 2004 report by Charles Duelfer, who succeeded Mr. Kay as ISG head, are that Saddam was pursuing an aggressive strategy to subvert the Oil for Food Program and to bring down U.N. sanctions through illicit finance and procurement schemes; and that Saddam intended to resume WMD efforts once U.N. sanctions were eliminated. According to Mr. Duelfer, "the guiding theme for WMD was to sustain the intellectual capacity achieved over so many years at such a great cost and to be in a position to produce again with as short a lead time as possible. . . . Virtually no senior Iraqi believed that Saddam had forsaken WMD forever. Evidence suggests that, as resources became available and the constraints of sanctions decayed, there was a direct expansion of activity that would have the effect of supporting future WMD reconstitution."

    Beyond this, Saddam's regime was one of the most sadistic and aggressive in modern history. It started a war against Iran and used mustard gas and nerve gas. A decade later Iraq invaded Kuwait. Iraq was a massively destabilizing force in the Middle East; so long as Saddam was in power, rivers of blood were sure to follow.

    Promoting democracy in the Middle East is a postwar rationalization. "The president now says that the war is really about the spread of democracy in the Middle East. This effort at after-the-fact justification was only made necessary because the primary rationale was so sadly lacking in fact," according to Nancy Pelosi.

    In fact, President Bush argued for democracy taking root in Iraq before the war began. To take just one example, he said in a speech on Feb. 26, 2003: "A liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region, by bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions. America's interests in security, and America's belief in liberty, both lead in the same direction: to a free and peaceful Iraq. . . . The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of a desire for freedom in the Middle East. . . . A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region."

    The following day the New York Times editorialized: "President Bush sketched an expansive vision last night of what he expects to accomplish by a war in Iraq. . . . The idea of turning Iraq into a model democracy in the Arab world is one some members of the administration have been discussing for a long time."





    These, then, are the urban legends we must counter, else falsehoods become conventional wisdom. And what a strange world it is: For many antiwar critics, the president is faulted for the war, and he, not the former dictator of Iraq, inspires rage. The liberator rather than the oppressor provokes hatred. It is as if we have stepped through the political looking glass, into a world turned upside down and inside out.

    Mr. Wehner is deputy assistant to the president and director of the White House's Office of Strategic Initiatives."
    Last edited by Pindar; 05-23-2006 at 19:31.

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  2. #2
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Gah
    Under construction...

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    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    ditto the gah, i didn't read the whole thing, but i think the problem with the war has been the lack of forsight of the withdrawl from iraq, and not the invasion itself...

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    Conspicuously Inconspicuous Member makkyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy
    ditto the gah, i didn't read the whole thing, but i think the problem with the war has been the lack of forsight of the withdrawl from iraq, and not the invasion itself...
    Not having a withdraw plan and not not revealing one to your enemies are two every different things.

    Rubbish . Saying that you have intelligence that strongly suggests something is not lying , saying that you know something as a fact , that you know its location as a fact and that your information is bulletproof is lying .

    That would require the knowledge that your information was never bulletproof to begin with, and would therefore constitue lying about the first part anyways.
    It was the CIA that made these reports. They make themselves out to be perfect (and they are the closest thing to it in this world). But does it equate to the president lying? I hardly think so.

    wasn't the point that the politicials didn't schew or alter any of the analytical judgements , it was that they didn't present any of the anylytical judgements that ran contrary to their political view really the result is lots of
    are you taking about the Vietnam war? or the war now?
    3000 dead in 4 years is a miracle. Not too many wars with so many men have had so few casualties.

    Now lets see , It started a war against Iran with foreign backing , it used foriegn supplied WMDs with foriegn assistance and backing , It invaded Kuwait because it didn't want to repay the money that had financed its foriegn backed wars. Foriegn backing is a massivly destabilizing force in the Middle-East , with or without Saddam rivers of blood are certainly flowing .
    There was a little something called the COLD WAR going on. Every country had foreign backing, one way or another. But blame the men that write his checks? I disagree. The man that pulls the trigger is guilty in my opinion.
    Either case, the way Europe drew up the middle-east after ww2 was what really caused things to go bad. Just like they did Africa. Dividing ethnic groups over imaginary lines doesn't see to work too well.

    NO WMDs , NO links to Al-Qaida, NO links to 9-11 , NO threat to America.
    Who is the US fighting right now I might ask?

    terrorists who the US government are now trying to re open their offices and allow their fundraising in the United States , terrorists whose "intelligence" assesment of Iran the US has recently put forward
    and I thought you suported facts and NOT assumptions.
    "And one should bear in mind that there is nothing more difficult to execute, nor more dubious of success, nor more dangerous to administer than to introduce a new order to things; for he who introduces it has all those who profit from the old order as his enemies; and he has only lukewarm allies in all those who might profit from the new. This lukewarmness partly stems from fear of their adversaries, who have the law on their side, and partly from the skepticism of men, who do not truly believe in new things unless they have personal experience in them."
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  5. #5

    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    That would require the knowledge that your information was never bulletproof to begin with, and would therefore constitue lying about the first part anyways.
    Since they did not know that the evidence was bulletproof then to describe it as such is a lie .
    It was the CIA that made these reports. They make themselves out to be perfect (and they are the closest thing to it in this world). But does it equate to the president lying? I hardly think so.

    Did the CIA say they were facts or did the administration say they were facts ? The intelligence was estimates ,the administration presented them as facts , that is not just misleading , it is a lie .
    See any difference Makkayo ....
    we think he has WMDs
    We Know he has WMDs
    We think we might know where they are
    We know where they are
    4 of these 15 bunkers may contain active chemical weapons
    these 4 bunkers in this compound contain active chemical weapons
    we think there may be evidence that shows there may be mobile chemical laboritories
    we know he has at least 7 mobile chemical weapons labs
    we believe that someone who may or may not be an officer in the Iraqi army met someone who is linked to Al-Qaida
    We have bulletproof evidence of links between Saddam and Al-Qaida .

    The administration lied , no two ways about it .

    3000 dead in 4 years is a miracle. Not too many wars with so many men have had so few casualties.
    Oh sorry I didn't realise that the natives don't count as casualties , silly me Then again , perhaps you can explain to those Brits here on this forum about the findings that link the London bombings to the Iraq invasion , I suppose they must have just been misleading eh , but I suppose they don't count as only servicemen count as casualties , not some poor bugger sitting on a bus .

    There was a little something called the COLD WAR going on. Every country had foreign backing, one way or another. But blame the men that write his checks? I disagree. The man that pulls the trigger is guilty in my opinion.

    Try that in a court of law , the man that pays the man to pull the trigger is also guilty .
    Either case, the way Europe drew up the middle-east after ww2 was what really caused things to go bad. ????????????
    Europe drew up the middle east after WW2?????yeah right

    and I thought you suported facts and NOT assumptions.
    Hmmmmmm....facts, would you like to see the motions put forward to allow the MEK to re-open its US offices , to unfreeze its assets , to resume fundraising ?
    Though I must admit that it did have me a bit stumped when I initially read the intelligence assessment that was put out , the "political"wing of the terrorist organisation has changed its name to get around the proscribed terrorist organisation blacklist

    Who is the US fighting right now I might ask?

    Well thats a hard one , there are so many groups out there now fighting in Iraq that it is really quite hard to see who is who , but I suppose that is what happens when some muppet invites every nutter in the world to "bring it on"

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Agreed. This post definitely needs a Gah option.

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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Revisionist History
    ...well that bit is correct anyway

    "Iraqis can participate in three historic elections, pass the most liberal constitution in the Arab world, and form a unity government despite terrorist attacks and provocations.
    well you only have to see that to give it the big GAH .

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    "gah" the intellectual equivalent of answering an argument by farting....
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    "Iraqis can participate in three historic elections, pass the most liberal constitution in the Arab world, and form a unity government despite terrorist attacks and provocations."
    The author's intellectual equivalent of having his head in the sand...
    Eppur si muove







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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Goodness, Pindar! You have destroyed the backroom leftist's argument with one article.

    And all of it is true.

    edit:Look! All the liberals can do is insult it without providing an actual argument!!!!!




    Well done, friend. Well done.
    Last edited by Divinus Arma; 05-23-2006 at 20:40.
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    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    "debunked" article

    sorry WSJ, there is utterly no question whatsoever that the Bush Administration lied about the threat saddam posed. also, the nightmare scenario was nothing like anything the bush administration talked up.

    the WSJ's thesis, is "the Bush administration did nothing funny with the intelligence, and the intelligence apparatus of the US, through no fault of it's own, dramatically overestimated saddam's buildup." whenever anyone went past the "yes/no" executive summary... they encountered the problem the CIA analysts encountered writing the NIE. the information was weak, and at the same time it said it would be ridiculous to think that saddam had rearmed, there was a small undercurrent of, "he could have super advanced weapons from the future... because we can't prove otherwise". any suggestion (from the intelligence community repudiating the intelligence the bush administration built their war claims on) otherwise fell on deaf ears. the bush administration had heard what they wanted, and tenet knew that their truth had little bearing on the zealotry displayed by cheney, and the singlemindedness of w. bush. then on the "yeah, there weren't any WMD, but he wanted them" the small problem with that, is Iran and North Korea have ACTIVE programs.

    op/ed pieces are no better than blogs.

  12. #12
    stalin
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Any chance of a reader's digest version released?
    Oh and GAH

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    This is from the Wall Street Journal's Editorial page: Opinion Journal

    Revisionist History
    Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked.

    BY PETER WEHNER
    Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

    Mr. Wehner is deputy assistant to the president and director of the White House's Office of Strategic Initiatives."
    Is there any credible explanation of why British blood and treasure had to be spent to achieve this goal? If the White House wants freedom and democracy for Iraq, good on them, but why did we have to be involved? Blair certainly didn't say anything about freedom and democracy when he was justifying the war to Parliament in the vote before the invasion.

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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    That is a great article. I read the entire thing.

    Of course it reads like it was written for the Wall Street Journal, if he wants mainstream America to believe it he would have to put it into a “People” or “Star” format with some beauty tips and Britney Spears baby references intermingled. Having George Clooney or Bono read it would also help.

    Sometimes I think if you were to give a plate of food to some starving people and tell them it was from the Bush administration they would starve to death. The same starving people would say with their last dying breath that the bush administration was only trying to keep them alive to torture them, rape them, and to steal their oil.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    So I guess Yesdachi's reply counts as another "Gah" vote.

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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    So I guess Yesdachi's reply counts as another "Gah" vote.
    I’d vote for GAH or Britney’s baby, they both make more sense than mainstream America’s inability to see past the hype.
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    So Yesdachi, if I'm understanding your original "gah or britney's baby" post, everyone who disagrees with the Bush admin is either fixated on celebrity culture or an unthinking Bush-hater who would rather eat poison than admit Bush was right about anything. Am I getting you right, here?

    I'm just not sure which camp I fall into. Besides the Gah camp, of course.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    mainstream America’s inability to see past the hype.
    And that was apparently the reason for all this WMD and "Saddam is linked to AQ" nonsense - to have "mainstream America" buy into the war.

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    *sigh* Doesn't anyone remember that Saddam not only violated the Gulf War cease fire AND tried to kill a former U.S. President (via suicide bomber, aka: TERRORISM)? Just because some weak fool who was more concerned about getting his nob polished than foreign policy did nothing doesn't mean that we shouldn't hold Saddam accountable.


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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    *sigh* Doesn't anyone remember that Saddam not only violated the Gulf War cease fire AND tried to kill a former U.S. President (via suicide bomber, aka: TERRORISM)? Just because some weak fool who was more concerned about getting his nob polished than foreign policy did nothing doesn't mean that we shouldn't hold Saddam accountable.
    Why should it matter to Britain whether or not Saddam tried to kill a US president, or if Clinton was more interested in having his knob polished than foreign policy? Is there any credible reason why Britain should have been dragged into this venture?

  21. #21

    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian Redux
    Why should it matter to the U.S. whether or not Hitler tried to bomb and invade the Islands? Is there any credible reason why the U.S. should have been dragged into this venture?
    Heh.


    Cause we're allies bro. Because I like the British and I would fight for their interests almost as hard as I would fight for U.S. interests. Because I believe that Britain is the moral/ethical equivalent of the U.S. in foreign policy. Because I belive that the British are a fair and noble just-minded population. Because the success and happiness of the British people matters to me as an American personally. Because the success and security of the British people matter to us as a nation as well.



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  22. #22
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    Heh.


    Cause we're allies bro. Because I like the British and I would fight for their interests almost as hard as I would fight for U.S. interests. Because I believe that Britain is the moral/ethical equivalent of the U.S. in foreign policy. Because I belive that the British are a fair and noble just-minded population. Because the success and happiness of the British people matters to me as an American personally. Because the success and security of the British people matter to us as a nation as well.



    I thought the US fought a war against Germany because Germany declared war on the US, or did I remember my history wrong? Did Iraq declare war on Britain before we went in?

  23. #23

    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    but mistakenly relying on faulty intelligence is a world apart from lying about it.

    Rubbish . Saying that you have intelligence that strongly suggests something is not lying , saying that you know something as a fact , that you know its location as a fact and that your information is bulletproof is lying .

    "I think all of our governments believe that Iraq has produced weapons of mass destruction and that we have to assume that they continue to have weapons of mass destruction."

    Yep they all knew that they had produced WMDs , many of them had helped them produce them , many of them had helped them use them(sorry Kurds you were backing Iran so tough #### on the gassing) , but the question was did they still have them and were they still producing them Hmmmmmm.....oh you have a German assumption there , great , what about the German statement that the evidence put forward was extremely unreliable ? you wouldn't want to mislead now would you Pindar ?
    Now then , does that "we" relate to the German government (who had already told the US that the informationwas unreliable ) or to "all" the governments ? It cannot be the latter as many had publicly stated by that time that there was no evidence to support that assumption .

    In addition, no serious person would justify a war based on information he knows to be false and which would be shown to be false within months after the war concluded.
    Oh dear , I suppose the author forgot about McNamara then , he knew the information for the Vietnam war was false and he knew that certain members of the military and legislature knew it was false , and it was shown to be false before the war STARTED .

    It is not as if the WMD stockpile question was one that wasn't going to be answered for a century to come.

    Well bugger me sideways , the arms inspectors have completed the reports and the US is no longer looking for WMDs .
    Its a new century and no one even noticed , happy new century everyone

    Analysts universally asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or alter any of their analytical judgments
    Where is that friend of the Tin-man ? he must be here somewhere , can anyone see him?
    Ahem ......but , but , but , oh yes I knew it was there somewhere....wasn't the point that the politicials didn't schew or alter any of the analytical judgements , it was that they didn't present any of the anylytical judgements that ran contrary to their political view really the result is lots of

    Beyond this, Saddam's regime was one of the most sadistic and aggressive in modern history. It started a war against Iran and used mustard gas and nerve gas. A decade later Iraq invaded Kuwait. Iraq was a massively destabilizing force in the Middle East; so long as Saddam was in power, rivers of blood were sure to follow.

    Now lets see , It started a war against Iran with foreign backing , it used foriegn supplied WMDs with foriegn assistance and backing , It invaded Kuwait because it didn't want to repay the money that had financed its foriegn backed wars. Foriegn backing is a massivly destabilizing force in the Middle-East , with or without Saddam rivers of blood are certainly flowing .

    To take just one example, he said in a speech on Feb. 26, 2003:
    Xrae to post the ful speech Pindar
    So full of holes and contradictions to reality it would be completely laughable if the outcome wasn't such a ballsup .

    The president misled Americans to convince them to go to war.
    Wow something in the article that is true , but the author is trying to debunk the truth ??????
    NO WMDs , NO links to Al-Qaida, NO links to 9-11 , NO threat to America . But hey Saddam was linked to terrorists , terrorists who many decades ago attacked America , terrorists who the US government are now trying to re open their offices and allow their fundraising in the United States , terrorists whose "intelligence" assesment of Iran the US has recently put forward
    So Pindar , in summary , I believe that the arguement that you have put forward would be described (in strictly legalese terms) as a pile of rotten tripe .
    Or alternatively......GAH

  24. #24
    Naughty Little Hippy Senior Member Tachikaze's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Beyond this, Saddam's regime was one of the most sadistic and aggressive in modern history. It started a war against Iran
    . . . with US support.

    The real terror has been in Sudan and Uganda. The US could have really done something positive there. Too bad those two nations don't have oil.


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    Shark in training Member Keba's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    "I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security."

    Mr. Wehner is deputy assistant to the president and director of the White House's Office of Strategic Initiatives"
    Just these two things from the article.

    One: To actually threaten the US Saddam would have to get a clutch of ICBMs, and those things aren't exactly easy to hide, acquire or build. If you've ever seen one, those things are huge, and cost like you wouldn't believe. Plus, they are essentially more like a rocket than a missile. Now, he may be pouring a lot of his economy into the army and weapons, but nevertheless, just the infrastructure to actually threaten the US would be huge.

    Two: now, now, you would't expect the deputy assistant to the president and director of the White House's Office of Strategic Initiatives to actually say something bad about his boss. He's a bearoucrat, his career depends on people above him, and telling they made a mistake would not be healthy (for his career, I mean, we're past those days when you could just kill the messanger).

    Oh, and officialy, my answer is .

  26. #26
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Yet for some critics of the president, these are minor matters. Like swallows to Capistrano, they keep returning to the same allegations--the president misled the country in order to justify the Iraq war; his administration pressured intelligence agencies to bias their judgments; Saddam Hussein turned out to be no threat since he didn't possess weapons of mass destruction; and helping democracy take root in the Middle East was a postwar rationalization. The problem with these charges is that they are false and can be shown to be so--and yet people continue to believe, and spread, them. Let me examine each in turn:
    Dear lord, you could feed all of Ghenghis Khan's cavalry for a decade on all those straw men.

    Lets take just a few for starters: first, on the issue of whether the president misled the country into war:

    The article cites the NIE, etc. What it neglects to mention is that the senate report on the 9/11 intelligence is only half complete. The second part, that deals with how the intelligence was used by the goverment, has not been written nor, apparently, even begun, because the Republicans who control the committee won't let it begin. You can read all about it here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_...igence_on_Iraq

    To summarize: no independent report has ever been published on how Bush et al. used the intelligence. That's is the real charge here, strawmen notwithstanding.

    One other fun note: the article actually tries to argue the following:

    In addition, no serious person would justify a war based on information he knows to be false and which would be shown to be false within months after the war concluded. It is not as if the WMD stockpile question was one that wasn't going to be answered for a century to come.
    It's argument here is that Bush is a 'serious' intellect? How very persuasive.


    BTW, Divinus, did you know that, whether intentionally or unintentionally, your signature is a virtual paraphrase of the theme from 'Team America: World Police'?
    "I love this fellow God. He's so deliciously evil." --Stuart Griffin

  27. #27

    Default Re: "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
    Divinus, did you know that, whether intentionally or unintentionally, your signature is a virtual paraphrase of the theme from 'Team America: World Police'?
    It's meant to be facetious and poke fun at my own political inclination, although beer and chicks are certainly worth fighting for.

    I have actually never seen the movie.

    I suppose if I were liberal my sig would look like this:

    Liberal Champion
    Hybrids. Tofu. Marijuana. Arbor Day. Gay Pride
    Parades. Tie-Dye Shirts. Grown Men Crying.
    These are the values that San Francisco was built on. We left the U.S.
    for a reason. They can keep their SUVs and rifles.
    Last edited by Divinus Arma; 05-23-2006 at 23:17.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  28. #28
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : "Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    For many antiwar critics, the president is faulted for the war, and he, not the former dictator of Iraq, inspires rage. The liberator rather than the oppressor provokes hatred.
    Sorry, but however gah the reasons for going to war may have been, the above is true. Whatever my criticisms, I will not condemn the war on moral grounds.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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