illiterate in America

[Tachikaze]

Ah making generalizations about Protestants again I see. Tsk Tsk...

My statement about Protestants has a qualifier.

[Redleg]

My statement about Protestants has a qualifier.

And it is still a generalization.

[KafirChobee]

First off, as for the selection of books to be used in schools - it is up to individual School Boards. Not the teacher. For a teacher to use or suggest using a book in their classroom, it must first be approved by the School Board. In some States their Legislatures must approve of them before they can be used (Georgia, Kansas, Missouri, Carolinas', Florida .... the list is huge, and the laws prohibitive). Today, in more than just a few States it is illegal to teach, or have in their school library a copy of "Huckleberry Finn" - and the list of banned books by States, School Boards (etc) is increadibly long - biased and prejudicial. But, this has little to do with the illiteracy in this country - it may have something to do witk the literacy rate however.

http://www.nrrf.org
Look around here for arguements about illiteracy and crime, etc. Tried posting a few of their essays, but it ain't woikin'.

According to the National Adult Literacy Survey: 42Million adult Americans cannot read; 50M read at a 4th or 5th grade level, 1 out of 4 teens dropout of High School and of those that do graduate HS 1 in 4 has the equivalency or less than an 8th grade education.

Now, the "no child left behind" act was intended to change that. What it has done is increase the dropout rate and impose a system of testing that limits the scope of what a teacher can actually teach. Teachers are to busy today drilling their kids on what the tests (government) want them to be affluent in, versus receiving a rounded and open education. Talk to a teacher in grade-shool (I know more than a few) about it, what they are graded on today. And the classroom size (kids in the seats) is still to large to allow for individual tutoring or mentoring of the exeptional ones. Still, I suppose any type of guideline is better than none.

Those concerned about the quality of the teachers versus their Union? Amongst professionals, the teaching profession remains the least paid and most overworked in our society. Want better qualified (though personally I feel the vast majority already are) teachers? Pay more - you'ld be surprised who will work for $60,000 a year versus $25 or 30K to teach.

http://www.geosurvey.nationalgeograp.../geosurvey.htm
Gah! can't get this one up either - oh, well. Just plug in "illiteracy" on a search engine and you can see for yourself.

This is from National Geographics, survey was 18-24 yearolds:
1) Only 34% can find Iraq on a map - even though US troops have been there since 2003.
2) 20% think Sudan is in Asia (the largest country in Africa).
3) 48% believe the majority of people in India are Muslim. (It's Hindu by a landslide)
4) Half cannot find New York on a map.

The link has test, btw. Take it for fun - I got one wrong (the one on the nation with the highest exports - who'ld a thunk it).

Innovation, tolerance and experimentation in the classroom will be our best ways to improve performance. But, if a child is not given the opportunity to expand their reading skills - no amount of testing, cajoling, intimidating, or expounding of verbage (giving lipservice) to the problem will make it go away.

Of late there have been a number of innovations employed by people truely concerned with improving the literacy rates here and abroad. In Harlem, they have a "free school" system outside the public one. [was on PBS, and CBS] - students are selected by a lottery. These kids are motivated, and so are their parents - that is the key (as many here have pointed out - parental involvement). This system teaches the parent first - to aid their child with homework and to be supportive. If the parent fails, so does the child - there is no tolerance for failure and the child (family) is sent on their way so a more committed family can take their place.

Life isn't fair, but leveling the playing field maybe one answer. Want to see public scools improve, really improve? Make it manditory for all congressmen's and government officials' kids to attend public school - one might be amazed at how quickly they will realize the importance for all children to have an equal education. Will never happen of course - they got a thousand reasons for it not being a practical idea. Just as they do for the failure of the present system of lower education - blame the teachers union, the parent (that works 3 jobs at minimum wage to make ends meet), and the student for not being motivated enough to learn to read. But, by dog lets get the bible back in the classroom.

What we have is a cycle of failure. That some accept. In my day (Gah!) the incorigables (ms) slept through classes in the back of the classroom, ditched whenever, and dropped out at 16. The teachers pretty much allowed it, or sent them to the Dean - regardless, they were the fodder of society. If they chose not to care, why should the teacher? Personally, I agree with this to a point. The problem is an alternative work course could have been created (as some here have pointed out) to allow these individuals the opportunity to get an education while being trained for a skill that interested them - none of them missed a "shop-class" (esp. auto). Where such course innovations are available their is a lower dropout rate. That's a fact.

Literacy is based entirely on one's reading skills. The faster one reads is a key, but retention of what they read is the major factor in expanding and gaining knowledge.(obviuosly) The Social arts seem to have a direct affect on the quality of an education. Music, for instance has a direct correlation with the expansion and interest of those involved - play an instrument (violin, piano, obo) and it seems a stimulant for other portions of the brain. Even just the teaching of the classics seems to open somes eyes to the vast world about them - versus the dirty streets outside their tenements.

Nothing is simple, but reading should be.

[Redleg]

Kafir

Nice write up - but I just can't help but feel that you continue to on purpose leave out one of the major reasons of the increase. Its not the government, its not the teachers, its not even the kids themselves.

If Parents are not concerned about their childs education - then the child will not be concerned about their education level.

Individual responsiblity of the parents has a major piece in this equation. Pointing the finger at the government's failure to fulfil its stated objects is good, but attempting to only blame the government's failure leaves one with the same problem in the future.

[Strike For The South]

42 million? That number seems to be a bit fudged. It would put our literacy rate at 86% somehow I think thats not right

[Sjakihata]

Got two wrong. What is CSI anyway? And that import question tricked me as well.

[Strike For The South]

My statement about Protestants has a qualifier.

Np it dosent. Tachi you know what happens when I go to church on Sunday? I sing a couple hymns give a cuople of dollars and I sit and look over at the redhead who Ive been talking to wondering when Ill finally get lucky. The sermons speak not of moral decay but of peace and forgivness and once we leave the preacher who happens to live next door grabs a magarita and we eat. Were not insane.

[Papewaio]

Hardly.

America needs this element of society to do the menial work, and be content doing it. A capitalistic society needs an underclass to do the worst, lowest paid jobs without too much objection.

Just like everything else in America: the more money you have, the better education you can get for your kids. Of course the kid's level of studiousness also must be high to achieve good results.

The intelligent upper classes go to private schools and learn the skills they need to manipulate those public school graduates who are barely literate. And the GDP continues to rise, and America becomes even richer. Thats how it works.

The only travesty is that the percentage of stupid americans has fallen to such a low point that we are having to employ illegals to do the **** work.

Actually an educated people will produce more. Education is a tool which can be used to leverage more out of a situation. Simply look at how much more work an educated working class (tradesmen) are capable of doing compared with slaves.

Also by limiting education to those of wealth you are missing out on the potential for great scientists, soldiers, doctors and leaders who rise from all economic backgrounds. Hence by limiting education you are limiting the growth rate of the system.

Their is a very good reason that the Asian economies are growing so quickly in high tech solutions, they are investing education in all their people. Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Japan and indeed China are doing their best to make sure they can educate their best not just their richest.

====

USA in WWII had a massive induastrial output because it had the biggest and most well educated workforce for its time. Other nations relying on slave labour, caste systems or rigid class systems found that they had a hard time keeping up with the economic output. To the point that the Japanese were surprised strategically with how quickly US could repair aircraft carriers and have them deployed back in the theater of operations.

Overtime every nation that has gone through a change towards greater equality and educational training has gone up in economic power. Those that have chosen more facist caste systems have ossified in economic power.

[AntiochusIII]

Hardly.

America needs this element of society to do the menial work, and be content doing it. A capitalistic society needs an underclass to do the worst, lowest paid jobs without too much objection.

Just like everything else in America: the more money you have, the better education you can get for your kids. Of course the kid's level of studiousness also must be high to achieve good results.

The intelligent upper classes go to private schools and learn the skills they need to manipulate those public school graduates who are barely literate. And the GDP continues to rise, and America becomes even richer. Thats how it works.[/I]

And that's how it should not. The "intelligent" upper class: do you mean the Yale idiots that become Presidents?

Not long ago I went to this lunch on this extremely rich "Literary club" that is nothing but a place to bring writers in to give speeches they don't want to give, a student or two a month for good look, and a chance for those filthy rich dumbasses to show their new cars.

Very intelligent.

Papewaio made an excellent point on this.

The truth is: America shouldn't need an uneducated underclass to do its work. If the world doesn't screw itself up in twenty, thirty years from now, which will be when the current kids are fully active in the workforce, then the robots will do all the job anyway. Thus your point is both archaic, morally wrong by the standards proclaimed by America, and crude.

You have been enlightened. Just because you don't recongize it does not mean it is not enlightenment.

Nitpicking: isn't enlightenment requires the individual to understand the point completely himself?

...

Alors,

As a high school student, I found the key problems to be:

1. The lack of motivation among the students. This is an age-old problem since the establishment of a mandatory school system, before that only a few gets to go and the problem isn't very "highlighted." However, the culture also influences the lack of motivation, and that is a very deep-rooted problem. Let's blame the kids, hey, then we have to blame like, 90% of them. So one has to try and fix it the hard way: the change of the underlying attitude, the culture. This I cannot give advice.

It is particularly bad in my city, Las Vegas, where the abundance of low-skill high-paying jobs distract students, compounded by a particularly bad school district.

This also involves the parent issue that has been expressed. The culture and the parent.

2. Bereaucracy. In my particular school system, it is obvious that the school district f*cks up very badly in many issues. The bereaucrats over there are parasites who never teaches but write lesson plans. THAT is completely unacceptable. A school system should be individualized in a good way, in a way with common goals, tied to society, but with an individual touch, and only direct inspections with a few common rules observed to prevent serious disparity. Teachers are at their best as individuals: effective teaching that create interactive individuals capable of functioning in a modern democratic state require thinking individuals, created by this individualization.

In the same time, the centralization of the system itself is required. States' rights crap be damned: the Progressive Era with its municipal "initiative" is over. America is now much less an activist society than it had ever been. Leave it to the locals and nothing ever happens. Ever. And ever. And the more systems you have (the small systems) the less oversight it will be. In conjunction with less direct control on the individuals, is more direct control on the systems: with the lower useless bereaucratic rules trapping individual experimentation, so will be less the workload for the system, which can then undergo the important task of cleaning itself up.

Of course, in America, that happens once in a century, after a particular bad Depression or war, or a Revolution. May be the Proletariat can rise now?

Right now there is bad "individualization," pampering us kids, weakening their resolve, putting into their heads the idea of being guaranteed on things which are not guaranteed in real life. And there is bad standardization: crap rules (my school has a dress code--a Dress Code! It's not even a uniform (in which the argument of the creation of a society, or the comformity, or whatever, will be valid) but a dress code with no points and a restriction that the teachers must observe it. Of course they also hate to observe it, but they must to keep their jobs...), pathetic bereaucracy (the district is responsible for a lot of pathetic mistakes and wasted opportunity), and the idea that the lowest common denominator should dominate. What a contradictory system it is.

Then again, the world has never achieved its full potential for once. Except may be in a few instances when extremities push men to the limit, like in a particularly crazy war the Finns had to face against the big bad Bear in 1940, or such other extreme situations. So my hope that a system like the United States can optimize itself is crazy.

3. Money. Xiahou declares that we spent more money than any other per student, but the problem is not the amount of money, but the use of money. Many teachers are underpaid while "parasites" are everywhere in the system, sucking money and providing no results. Fancy computers are bought (nice and all, yeah) while student initiatives, clubs, and such other social efforts are not paid. Only frantic fundraising could properly serve them, and there are even rules against certain ways of fundraising. Here in my school we can't sell candy for fundraising, at all! If there's anything that makes the Japanese so apparently superior, it's not their teaching style, I know that well and it isn't actually very nice or interactive: direct lectures and crazy, superhuman memorization. Doesn't do much good in my opinion, though it will certainly forge out those vaunted scientists with an iron discipline. But the complete overarching domination of school life over a student's life, the social clubs, and such, provide such students with benefits of social development and motivation.

And call me a ******, an ******, whatever, but there is approximately ten times the amount of money spent on individual special education students than the "best" students. This is quite absurd, even for such a "compassionate" society as ours. Of course, the special ed kids who are pampered now will only go out to find a society so cruel that they will have very little, pathetically little, opportunity to live a good life while their youth had been years of pampering, almost 1:1 ratio of student per teacher, etc. The myth of the best students being the main concern of the school should be debunked a thousand times over: the lowest common denominator prevails, again. Also prevails is the irony of the special ed kids and their future...

4. Teacher incompetence. This is the issue revolves around the Union, as others, conservative, adult members of this board has pounded on. And also revolves around the bereaucratic incompetence that presides over this post of mine.

And there is also a side issue about colleges: there is something particular wrong about a society so capitalistic that people have to bleed over, get themselves into debt that will last years, if not, for the unlucky, decades, at the eve of "life" just to get into a decent college and receive an education deemed necessary for today's society.

Anyway, that's my opinion, my rant, and I must express my surprise for anyone who actually reads it from the start to here.

(Language - Beirut)

[KafirChobee]

Redleg

I did actually mention parents as a necessary instrument in the betterment of a childs education. The experiment in Harlem was my example of this. Allowing a child to sink or swim of their own innitiative, without understanding the incentive to do so or the improvements for their lifestyle in 20 years - well, that can be a hard thing to teach.

For my personal experience, I was an under-acheiver (putting it lightly - I could get a 3.0 by just showing up to class and skimming the books). My Mom had more ambition for me than I did. Working as a legal secratary she even got me an in for West Point (her firm had a judge and congressman), which of course I callously and nonchallantly cast aside like yesterdays news. Still, I did eventually find my own way.

Many of the lower-class kids do not have the advantages many of us have been handed us. A few, do climb out of the mire despite the circumstance of social placement. Most because of a parent, and even fewer despite them.

Laying blame on the parents when; as someone previously pointed out the time element or ratio spent with teachers, "playmates" (gangs), etc. versus actual face to face with parents - is unfair.

Certainly it would be a wonderful thing if all parents took or had the time to pay attention to their kids educations. Thing is, the less a person is paid the less time they probably have for their kids. Period. Works the other way to, but the wealthier a person is the more likely they can afford tuitors.

Now, is it possible to hold the parent responsible for their childs disinterest or failure? No. If it were a resolve would have been met years ago. Further, when this approach has been attempted, it has failed - how do you punish a parent for working 80 hour weeks (at minimum wage - which hasn't been increased since Carter was President - Clinton's attempt failed in the Republican congress) just attempting to feed their kids?

Blaming the parents is to easy, justified in many cases, but still to easy an outlook of the entire problem.

Antiochus, interesting perspective. Good post....... it is "bureaucracy" btw. Regardless, your points were well made. Bureaucracys are self preserving, self sustaining entities that propagate themselves through the ignorance and acceptance of others - they expand expotentially to the influence (and in some cases fear) they have on those established to limit them. They are amazing animals of power, and if allowed ... corruption.

Papawaio - maybe it is time someone reminded us that WWII was won because of our literacy, not despite it. I agree.

SoS, I swear, I have not fudged any numbers. We are 50th in the world, and 42Million of us cannot read. look again at the level many do read at ... and it is down right scary.

[Redleg]

Redleg

I did actually mention parents as a necessary instrument in the betterment of a childs education. The experiment in Harlem was my example of this. Allowing a child to sink or swim of their own innitiative, without understanding the incentive to do so or the improvements for their lifestyle in 20 years - well, that can be a hard thing to teach.

THe Harlem experiment does indeed demonstrate several important aspects of education. Many that are often overlook. Education is a partnership between several players - Child, Parent, and Teacher, without one the others can not accomplish the task of education.

Many of the lower-class kids do not have the advantages many of us have been handed us. A few, do climb out of the mire despite the circumstance of social placement. Most because of a parent, and even fewer despite them.

Amazing one-sided. I come from a lower class grouping. Farmers and construction workers are normally considered part of the upper or middle-class group now are they? Specially small land-owning farmers mortaged to the bank.

Laying blame on the parents when; as someone previously pointed out the time element or ratio spent with teachers, "playmates" (gangs), etc. versus actual face to face with parents - is unfair.

Same as its unfair to place the blame primarily on the government. Without the parent education becomes difficult.

Certainly it would be a wonderful thing if all parents took or had the time to pay attention to their kids educations. Thing is, the less a person is paid the less time they probably have for their kids. Period. Works the other way to, but the wealthier a person is the more likely they can afford tuitors.

Then explain why my parents - one who was a construction worker, oilfield roughneck, and farmer happen to encourage and insure I went to school. And the other parent who also worked 40 hours as a Vet assistance and seamtress insured that I went to school. Your taking the easy way out in your explaination - just like many parents do with their childern. If a parent cares about their child they make the time to spend with the child. Try working a swing shift - its hard, but responsible parents make the effort.

Now, is it possible to hold the parent responsible for their childs disinterest or failure? No. If it were a resolve would have been met years ago. Further, when this approach has been attempted, it has failed - how do you punish a parent for working 80 hour weeks (at minimum wage - which hasn't been increased since Carter was President - Clinton's attempt failed in the Republican congress) just attempting to feed their kids?

Faced that one myself several times with my older child. If a child is disinterested in education that is a different scenerio then what your initial premise was about.

Blaming the parents is to easy, justified in many cases, but still to easy an outlook of the entire problem.

Just as blaming only the government. Education is a partnership of several different players. The Child, The teacher, the Parent, and the government which provides the money for education. It seems your wanting to focus only in the government's failure. I happen to focus more on the parent. Responsible parenting requires the individual to be involved with their child regardless of their situation. I know several personally and many from the school my child goes to who follow that model regardless of their finicial position.

[KafirChobee]

Redleg
You're nitpicking my friend.

I to (obviously) come from the working class. Still recall (was 7) when my Dad made shop manager at Lodi motors (Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge - #1 at the time, btw) and Mom was a waitress then (as she was later in life due to carpel-tunnel-syndrom, from typing). Lived on a farm too (albeit poultry, from 6-9), 2 Grandparents, 3 parents, and 6 Grandkids.

I went to 2 grade schools. 3 Jr. Highs, and 5 H.S.s. I seen it all. I got to go through the new kid scenario every few or every year. Take my word, you learn to do more than exist. It is like being the new meat in a jail in some cases, because there was a pecking order even in them days. Take my word, my brothers and I knew how to depend on one another - no one messed with us after the first month in a district. Mess with one, mess with all ... and we knew how and where to make our alliences.

Red, what you don't grasp is despite the adversities our parents had - we got by because of the school systems we were in. We had it made by comparrison of inner-city youth, we never (rarely) feared for our lives, let alone on a daily basis.

The worst I saw was Fenger H.S., Chicago. There were some excellent teachers, but the administrators sucked - the admins couldn't tell one kid from another. To them, we were all the same - and that was, we were all bad. Not that i wasn't a badass, but I was a lovable one. More than that pity my poor brothers that followed me there, "Are you JF____K____'s brother?". Told them to deny me .... fools never did. Most said to pay attention as I had, others made rude comments - but, even they were reverant (not that i was legend, but i did have my days ).

The thing is, howling about the sacrifice of ones parents - working 80 hour weeks - which means you decided to accomplish your goals by yourself without their assistance, tutoring, or encouragement is commendable. It is not, however, a good example of good parenting according to the present Republican standard - which is all women should stay at home and homeschool their younguns.

Discarding the facts that it is the responsability of the government to assure that all Americans can read - English; no spanish, no germans, no french.... just english please - is apropro. I suppose, for anyone that accepts that the government is not responsible for anything. Especially, the health, education or social welfare of all Americans.

Itemizing my arguements, quoting lines out of context, or using the portions most suitable for your one-two liners - as you do in all your incursions into others dissertations on the entire subject being debated. Is typical.
Just once, i would like to see you fulfill your potential by freelancing your thoughts into a comprehensive composite of what you really feel, believe.

Your parents, and mine did the best they could. They both did a fair job, yours better than mine if you like. Thing is, did we exceed their goals for us? Me, no - my Mom would have wanted me President. From my Dad? He once told me, I was the only son he never worried about - 'cause I would always find a way. A way for what? He never said.

[Redleg]

Redleg
You're nitpicking my friend.

Not at all - if I wanted to nitpick I would


I to (obviously) come from the working class. Still recall (was 7) when my Dad made shop manager at Lodi motors (Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge - #1 at the time, btw) and Mom was a waitress then (as she was later in life due to carpel-tunnel-syndrom, from typing). Lived on a farm too (albeit poultry, from 6-9), 2 Grandparents, 3 parents, and 6 Grandkids.

I went to 2 grade schools. 3 Jr. Highs, and 5 H.S.s. I seen it all. I got to go through the new kid scenario every few or every year. Take my word, you learn to do more than exist. It is like being the new meat in a jail in some cases, because there was a pecking order even in them days. Take my word, my brothers and I knew how to depend on one another - no one messed with us after the first month in a district. Mess with one, mess with all ... and we knew how and where to make our alliences.[/quote]

Same background - probably just as rough.

Red, what you don't grasp is despite the adversities our parents had - we got by because of the school systems we were in. We had it made by comparrison of inner-city youth, we never (rarely) feared for our lives, let alone on a daily basis.

You misunderstand - I grasp more then what you are thinking.

The worst I saw was Fenger H.S., Chicago. There were some excellent teachers, but the administrators sucked - the admins couldn't tell one kid from another. To them, we were all the same - and that was, we were all bad. Not that i wasn't a badass, but I was a lovable one. More than that pity my poor brothers that followed me there, "Are you JF____K____'s brother?". Told them to deny me .... fools never did. Most said to pay attention as I had, others made rude comments - but, even they were reverant (not that i was legend, but i did have my days ).

Your pointing out something that is not the government's fault but the individual school system.

The thing is, howling about the sacrifice of ones parents - working 80 hour weeks - which means you decided to accomplish your goals by yourself without their assistance, tutoring, or encouragement is commendable. It is not, however, a good example of good parenting according to the present Republican standard - which is all women should stay at home and homeschool their younguns.

Who states that - that is a generalization that does not have a lot of support among the people I know. But then I never claimed to be a Republician either.

Discarding the facts that it is the responsability of the government to assure that all Americans can read - English; no spanish, no germans, no french.... just english please - is apropro. I suppose, for anyone that accepts that the government is not responsible for anything. Especially, the health, education or social welfare of all Americans.

Again you are generalizing - the responsibility falls on more then just the government. Where does individual responsibility fall into the equation? Education requires more then just the government.

Itemizing my arguements, quoting lines out of context, or using the portions most suitable for your one-two liners - as you do in all your incursions into others dissertations on the entire subject being debated. Is typical.
Just once, i would like to see you fulfill your potential by freelancing your thoughts into a comprehensive composite of what you really feel, believe.

Oh a typical attempt at ad hominem arguement there Kafir. I respond to each paragraph as it suits me.

Your parents, and mine did the best they could. They both did a fair job, yours better than mine if you like. Thing is, did we exceed their goals for us? Me, no - my Mom would have wanted me President. From my Dad? He once told me, I was the only son he never worried about - 'cause I would always find a way. A way for what? He never said.

The difference is Kafir I don't blame the government for the individuals failure. Neither did my parents.

[Redleg]

Oh by the way Kafir I have done just that - free writing of my own thoughts - we all know all that turned out between the two of us.

[Strike For The South]

Well today was the last day of exams (and school for the matter) and my average for the year was an 87 same as last year. I dont really study all that much except for math. Any other subject I can just show up and get a sold b or higher but math has always been my weak point the past 2 years Ive passed with a 70 and a 72 Well its summer which means its time for booze women and a job to get a truck mmmmm F-250 4x4 mmmmmmmm

[Divinus Arma]

Genaerally the dumbest. But also indisbutabitleldy (heh, sic) the smartedest.

Yup we be smarts. hyuck.

[Zalmoxis]

Out of curiosity and a sheer listless surrender of any attempt to search for this in the thread, what's the literacy rate in the US?

[Blodrast]

Very good post, imo, AntiochusIII. I think you pointed out several key issues, and I like your stance, to be honest.
And I also believe I find a lot of substance in your arguments, Kafir.

Good points.

Zalmoxis: eh... just scroll a bit up on this same page, in Kafir's post (post #63).