There are some nice ones...

[Csargo]

Like I've been saying all along we need a Great Wall of Mexico if people would just listen to me GAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[scooter_the_shooter]

I am for the land mine Idea....just make sure they know they are there . Then only the idiots and criminals would cross

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I had originally thought you were being sarcastic but after reading further along in the thread you are serious. You seriously think she is doing good and you seriously think allowing the illegals to remain is ok. I can’t think of a bigger mistake the US could make. Invading Iraq was a plan of genius compared to allowing the nearly 20 million (this is a more accurate number than your 11) illegal immigrants (which would quickly turn into 200 million, via bring your family along immigration rules and new births over the course of just a few years, if they were granted some kind of amnesty) to stay.

The US can not take on a burden of such magnitude without collapsing. And why would we want to? To be nice? Pffffftt not me, I’m having a hard enough time paying my own bills and securing my families future. A future that I have been working on for over 30 years. No one should be able to hop a fence or swim a river or cross a dry rocky piece of land and be given all the things I have been busting my butt for. There are no free rides on this bus, baby, and I don’t see many illegals with a token, actually my bus isn’t free AND it doesn’t have any vacancy’s either, unless you go thru the proper immigration channels. I don’t feel any compulsion to offer them any assistance at all. IMO, if they want more they should be storming the gates to Fox’s house rather than storming across our boarder.

I'm not saying we should allow them to stay. I think, A) People are making too big a deal of it, and B) People are unrealistically thinking we can take all these illegals out of here. It's too big a task, we need to find a temporary solution. I don't know what that is, but it's not my job. Give me a link that states it's about 20 million instead of 11.

[Reverend Joe]

Yes, I thought too at first the thread was about tits - I got disappointed...

So did I. Great minds think alike.

[scooter_the_shooter]

I'm not saying we should allow them to stay. I think, A) People are making too big a deal of it, and B) People are unrealistically thinking we can take all these illegals out of here. It's too big a task, we need to find a temporary solution. I don't know what that is, but it's not my job. Give me a link that states it's about 20 million instead of 11.

We don't need to get rid of all of them just most of them take their stuff too, send them back with just the clothes on their backs and a meal. I know it is brutal and cruel; but it is better for the crountry in the long run.

[Papewaio]

Even if the US made all 20 million illegal immigrants legal it would still mean that the US has a foreign born population percentage of less then 20%.

298,444,215 (source CIA Factbook)
Foreign born population 10.4% (source NationMaster)
20,000,000 would add another 6.7% to the foreign born population.

So you would have a total foreign born population percentage of 17.1%

Canada has a foreign born population of 17.4%.

Australia has a foreign born population of 23%, a health care system for all, a government surplus... and as for trade we have a trade surplus with the Chinese, export camels to Saudi Arabia, export rice to South East Asia and export Vodka to Russia...

In short I don't think the American economy would collapse if it took on a larger amount of immigrants.

However any country has the right to decide whom they will let in to become a tourist, resident or citizen.

[yesdachi]

I'm not saying we should allow them to stay. I think, A) People are making too big a deal of it, and B) People are unrealistically thinking we can take all these illegals out of here. It's too big a task, we need to find a temporary solution. I don't know what that is, but it's not my job. Give me a link that states it's about 20 million instead of 11.

Most sources claim between 11 and 20 million, I choose to prepare for the worst and be pleasantly surprised if we ever find out that the numbers are better.

The Wall Street investment firm Bear Stearns has published a new report, “The Underground Labor Force is Rising to the Surface,” which claims that the illegal alien population is double the official government estimates. According to Bear Stearns analysts, Robert Justich and Betty Ng, the illegal alien population of the U.S. is about 20 million—roughly the population of New York State.

links: 1 2 3 4

The 20 million number isn’t even the biggest issue, it’s the fact that if they are given any kind of “legal” status they are then able to bring in family who can stay here while going thru the process of becoming a citizen. Say each illegal brought in/sponsored a parent, spouse, child and a sibling. Then the spouse brought in a parent, the sibling brought in a spouse and child, etc. Even if the number is 11 million, in 5 years its going to be over a hundred million, how’s that going to effect the economy?

[Incongruous]

I have some negative views towards Christians

You now what man...
(Edited by Ser Clegane - please refrain from making such personal attacks) So I guess the kids who go round being dicks allday and wagging class who are of a certain race should be able to get all the freebees later on while I work my ass off. Ha and while being a Christian at the same time. So I guess to you I'm as bad as they come A
WHITE
MIDDLE CLASS
ROMAN CATHOLIC
WHO DOES WELL AT SCHOOL

CRAP I SHOULD JUST IMPRISON MYSELF NOW HUH?

[PanzerJaeger]

CRAP I SHOULD JUST IMPRISON MYSELF NOW HUH?

No, you should seek to imprison those whites and minorities who are trying to destroy the great society white, middle class Christians have created in this country.

Stand up for yourself.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

You now what man...
(Edited by Ser Clegane - please refrain from making such personal attacks) So I guess the kids who go round being dicks allday and wagging class who are of a certain race should be able to get all the freebees later on while I work my ass off. Ha and while being a Christian at the same time. So I guess to you I'm as bad as they come A
WHITE
MIDDLE CLASS
ROMAN CATHOLIC
WHO DOES WELL AT SCHOOL

CRAP I SHOULD JUST IMPRISON MYSELF NOW HUH?

I don't really like any religions (you should read the entire post before making personal attacks).

Not to mention, I'm praising someone of your faith. Don't say anything about dicks, if you are going to make those kinds of posts.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Alexanderofmacedon, don't hate religion, hate those who use it for evil

[Somebody Else]

Alexanderofmacedon, don't hate religion, hate those who use it for evil

Define 'evil'. For that matter, define 'good'.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Define 'evil'. For that matter, define 'good'.

you better not be trying to lead me into a grammer discusion...

Good, doing what is moraly right

evil, immoral and malevolent actions with undesirable results

[Somebody Else]

you better not be trying to lead me into a grammer discusion...

Good, doing what is moraly right

evil, immoral and malevolent actions with undesirable results

Okay, so what makes something morally right or wrong?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Okay, so what makes something morally right or wrong?

a number of factors

the intentions of the person making the action

the effect desired by them

their reason for the action

the actual result of the action and how it affects the world

its not black and white but shades of gray

[Somebody Else]

a number of factors

the intentions of the person making the action

the effect desired by them

their reason for the action

the actual result of the action and how it affects the world

its not black and white but shades of gray

And who's to tell whether someone's intentions are right or wrong? Whether the effect is good or bad... Does individual judgement come into it? Or is there some kind of moral absolute that we can anchor our morality to?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

And who's to tell whether someone's intentions are right or wrong? Whether the effect is good or bad... Does individual judgement come into it? Or is there some kind of moral absolute that we can anchor our morality to?

yes there is a moral absolute ''love your neighbour'' as for induvidual judgements, it is not for me to judge,

[Somebody Else]

yes there is a moral absolute ''love your neighbour'' as for induvidual judgements, it is not for me to judge,

Do you wish me then to promote the physical well-being of my neigbour? Or to aim for his happiness? What if by aiding one neighbour, I injure another?

[Sjakihata]

yes there is a moral absolute ''love your neighbour'' as for induvidual judgements, it is not for me to judge,

Is it for God to judge? If it is, then please refrain from using the good/evil argument, since He alone can judge it. If it is not God who is it then? And if I do something with malicious intentions, but end up helping a million of persons, is it then good or evil? And if I do something with the best intentions, but end up harming a million of persons, is it then good or evil?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Do you wish me then to promote the physical well-being of my neigbour? Or to aim for his happiness? What if by aiding one neighbour, I injure another?

yes you should help them, love all your neigbours, though if your injuring your neighbour then your not helping him are you

Is it for God to judge? If it is, then please refrain from using the good/evil argument, since He alone can judge it. If it is not God who is it then? And if I do something with malicious intentions, but end up helping a million of persons, is it then good or evil? And if I do something with the best intentions, but end up harming a million of persons, is it then good or evil?

i have made no good evil argument except that which you have assumed
i said ''Alexanderofmacedon, don't hate religion, hate those who use it for evil''
i have already said that it is not for me to judge and i have not named any who i believe to have used religion for evil i was only stating that the parts of relgion that he (and others) dislike so much are often the result of incorrect interpretations or people twisting the scripture to use it for evil purposes


now somebody else started talking about good and evil, that was beside my point if your going to dissagree with me, fine, do so, but dissagree with my point not with some ''good evil'' argument you think i have made.

[yesdachi]

Define 'evil'. For that matter, define 'good'.

The palladium RPG books have great alignment descriptions that describe evil and good surprisingly well IMO.

[Somebody Else]

y''Alexanderofmacedon, don't hate religion, hate those who use it for evil''
i have already said that it is not for me to judge and i have not named any who i believe to have used religion for evil i was only stating that the parts of relgion that he (and others) dislike so much are often the result of incorrect interpretations or people twisting the scripture to use it for evil purposes

In many religions, it is from the god/s that we get our basis for good and evil. In other words, if a religion has it that say... killing the first-born male child of each family is right to do, then that is - according to said religion - morally right.

[Duke Malcolm]

Indeed, Somebody Else has a good point. Good and Evil are all matters of opinion, each religion has its own interpretation. The missionaries of the 19th Century consider what they did to be good -- spreading their religion, and trying to bring the benefits of their civilisation to the Africans. People now look back and think the missionaries were bad, and in bringing their civilisation to the Africans they subjugated them (or so some believe).

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Indeed, Somebody Else has a good point. Good and Evil are all matters of opinion, each religion has its own interpretation. The missionaries of the 19th Century consider what they did to be good -- spreading their religion, and trying to bring the benefits of their civilisation to the Africans. People now look back and think the missionaries were bad, and in bringing their civilisation to the Africans they subjugated them (or so some believe).

opinion! realy! where do they teach this, everyones goin round saying it at the moment!

now if your talking about borderline cases maybe but in the main good can be seperated from evil

are their any comments on what i actually said?

[Alexanderofmacedon]

No, I think I can hate a religion for what it creates. I don't just hate any particular religion, I don't even really 'hate' religion. I hate the turmoil it creates. It's disgusting in my opinion...

[Duke Malcolm]

opinion! realy! where do they teach this, everyones goin round saying it at the moment!

now if your talking about borderline cases maybe but in the main good can be seperated from evil

are their any comments on what i actually said?

When there is one religion that everyone follows, with the exact same interpretation, then there will be definitions of Good and Evil is accordance witht the teachings of that universal religion. Without any such dogma, as we have today, there is conflicting interests in Good and Evil. One religion says something is good, another says it is evil. Furthermore, one interpretation of a religion might say something is good, another evil. And the same goes for athiests/agnostics. They have no finite moral code set out in a Holy Book, they have their own individual morals, which may conflict with other athiests/agnostics and even other religions. Good and Evil are always subjective, dependent on one's own views. As they say, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

And if I may digress, those principlse people may act by today may be considered evil in the future, with bad consequences. In improving health throughout the world, improving child mortality rates, raising life expectancies, the population might increase exponentially. This would lead to over-population, there may not be enough food and water to go around, there may even be wars over such resources. Thus something good today -- improving health -- may have evil consequences in the future.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

No, I think I can hate a religion for what it creates. I don't just hate any particular religion, I don't even really 'hate' religion. I hate the turmoil it creates. It's disgusting in my opinion...

then say that you hate religion as it can be used as an excuse to do bad things rather then that you just hate it, oh yeah and don't forget to hate football, money, land, women, racism, and everything else in this world that has been fought over or created turmoil

[Byzantine Mercenary]

When there is one religion that everyone follows, with the exact same interpretation, then there will be definitions of Good and Evil is accordance witht the teachings of that universal religion. Without any such dogma, as we have today, there is conflicting interests in Good and Evil. One religion says something is good, another says it is evil. Furthermore, one interpretation of a religion might say something is good, another evil. And the same goes for athiests/agnostics. They have no finite moral code set out in a Holy Book, they have their own individual morals, which may conflict with other athiests/agnostics and even other religions. Good and Evil are always subjective, dependent on one's own views. As they say, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

And if I may digress, those principlse people may act by today may be considered evil in the future, with bad consequences. In improving health throughout the world, improving child mortality rates, raising life expectancies, the population might increase exponentially. This would lead to over-population, there may not be enough food and water to go around, there may even be wars over such resources. Thus something good today -- improving health -- may have evil consequences in the future.

look back at the post that started all this, i wasn't trying to judge people according to my moral code as you seem to think , somebody else asked my opnion and i gave it and now you complain that it is my opnion! now in my opinion there is only one religion with one interpretation which is why the model works in my mind