British values classes considered

**ShadesWolf** · 05-19-2006, 06:20

Originally Posted by lancelot

You vile Americans..return the 13 colonies!...

Yes France return Gascony and Calais and Normandy....
I could go on

**Brenus** · 05-19-2006, 07:50

“Yes France return Gascony and Calais and Normandy....” No, it is England, remember who win in 1066. Accept France never gave you your independence. Back to mammy… And who won the 100 years war…? As I said, all depend on HOW you interpret history. By the way, Scotland also belong to France due the secret treaty between France and Scotland when Mary, Queen of Scotland married the French King I don’t remember the name!!!

**English assassin** · 05-19-2006, 11:33

That's pretty much it. National values are none existant, only human values. Your country can follow a political ideology, or have a majority under a single faith and set of traditions, but that's pretty much it. Free speech? How the hell is that something uniquely British? The Monarchy? How the hell is that something uniquely British? The English Language? How the hell is that.. you get the point. It is, I'm afraid, complete and utter arse.

Wait a minute. Where did it say that to be a British value, something had to be exclusively British?

I might think that telling the truth and being honest in business are British values, but even if I did think that I am not implying that I think that every other nation must tell lies and be dishonest. Or, for that matter, that every person in Britain is truthful and honest. All I would be saying is that, in Britain, being truthful and honest are qualities that are generally valued.

I fail to see why anyone has a problem with the concept of British values on that basis. I would not expect any list of British values to differ very much from a list headed "Western European values", marginally more sceptical, a fair bit more individual, that would be about it.

**A.Saturnus** · 05-19-2006, 19:45

Originally Posted by English assassin

Wait a minute. Where did it say that to be a British value, something had to be exclusively British?

I might think that telling the truth and being honest in business are British values, but even if I did think that I am not implying that I think that every other nation must tell lies and be dishonest. Or, for that matter, that every person in Britain is truthful and honest. All I would be saying is that, in Britain, being truthful and honest are qualities that are generally valued.

I fail to see why anyone has a problem with the concept of British values on that basis. I would not expect any list of British values to differ very much from a list headed "Western European values", marginally more sceptical, a fair bit more individual, that would be about it.

I never assumed British values had to be exclusive. But take your example. What would be the point in teaching people that it is a British value to be truthful and honest? I don't think you'll find any culture on this planet that does not see these as qualities, so what's the point of calling them "British"? Is "not being hit by a meteor" also a British value?

But ok, maybe that's a bad example. I'm sure you can find examples that are less trivial. But I'm still not sure what's the point of calling them British values, especially in the context of teaching them to immigrants. From a humanist perspective, traditions are not a basis for normatives. You can't justify a rule by saying "cause we're in Britain and that's the way we do it here". Well, you can, but that's an inane ethical system. To be acceptable, rules have to have a basis in form of a general principle. Which is best not locally bound. That's something I particular like about the German Constitution. Its first principal is "A human's diginity is untouchable". To say that's a German value would be entirely the wrong message. This principle is meant to be universal. It's not just for Germans or people in Germany. It counts for all humans, in all places, at all times. It is an eternal, never-changing part of being human.
If these "British values" or "European values" or "Western values" are ethical principles, we shouldn't call them "British", "European" or "Western", because they are meant to be universal. We shouldn't tell a man from Saudi-Arabia that inequality of men and women isn't part of British culture and therefore not the standard here, we should tell him that inequality of men and women is wrong, was always wrong and will always be wrong. Here, in Saudi-Arabia, on the moon and in the galaxy M33.
If these values are not based on ethical values, they are just folklore and don't have to be taken seriously.

**Brenus** · 05-19-2006, 22:25

About British values: For whatever reason the woman in charge of my bank account thought I was Serb, probably because it was my last address before to come in England. So, we went with my English wife to deal with some financial subjects. I don’t remember why, but the conversation went on and she ask me if I got my British Nationality. I said no, I am French, I don’t need to be English, and added: “I refuse to consider Waterloo as a victory” (joke). She looked a little bit embarrassed.
Perhaps the Values are just a point of view on events, a feeling about events, a reading of history.

**Duke Malcolm** · 05-19-2006, 13:18

Originally Posted by Brenus

“Yes France return Gascony and Calais and Normandy....” No, it is England, remember who win in 1066. Accept France never gave you your independence. Back to mammy… And who won the 100 years war…? As I said, all depend on HOW you interpret history. By the way, Scotland also belong to France due the secret treaty between France and Scotland when Mary, Queen of Scotland married the French King I don’t remember the name!!!

Scotland does not belong to France, even if Mary married a French King. It would still go to Mary's first born son -- James VI...

**ShadesWolf** · 05-19-2006, 15:28

So if we belong to France

Why then in 1337 was Edward III not made king.
He was infact family

**Brenus** · 05-19-2006, 18:43

“He was infact family” He was, but from the female side. So, the other contestant to the throne re-acted the so-call Salique law, pretending that the throne couldn’t go “en-quenouille”, which means by the female.
The Salique law was from a Germanic tradition coming from the Francs salien. Clovis put it in writing. It gave the rules for the succession for the lands, excluding the women, but they could still be heritage others possessions. It didn’t concern the succession of the Throne (which is a title), but, well, the lawyers twisted a little bit the concept.

Edward was the son of Edward II and Isabelle of France, daughter of Phillip II Le Bel (the one who slaughter the Templars) and Jeanne I Queen of Navarre.