The Will of the Senate - out of character thread

[TinCow]

There is also the Metropolis & Naval Mod for Platinum, which includes the 4TPY mod as well.

http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20000

How about there must be a mandatory legislative period prior to the beginning of a Consulate term. After that, we can require the Consul to post regular reports to allow us to debate before continuing the game. The Senate could then say whatever they want during interrim sessions, votes there would be 'binding' as well, though it's possible none may be proposed or none may pass. This would also allow for personal requests and favors between the Consul and individual Senators.

However, if we are going to have an effective interrim debate period, we will have to limit the speed at which the Consul plays. Perhaps something like no more than 1 game year (4 turns) per day, with a maximum of 5 game years per week. We could require an update at end of each 'year' (1 real time day) about events, though that update could consist of:

"Not much, a couple buildings and some recruitment."

If things are going too slowly like this, we could always pass 'legislation' requing a report only every 2 years. The Senate could be used like this to change the very rules/mechanics of the game itself.

[econ21]

There is also the Metropolis & Naval Mod for Platinum, which includes the 4TPY mod as well.

Well spotted, I'd missed that. I am a little worried about the last update being only 3 days ago - my point about being a work in progress - but I'll try anything once.

A system of yearly reporting to the Senate (& playing a maximum of one year per day of real life) sounds good to me.

The Senate could be used like this to change the very rules/mechanics of the game itself.

Very important point, agreed.

BTW, I've now posted calls for players in the Entrance Hall and the M2TW forum, as well as the Colosseum and the Chapter House. I've also posted in the RTR website AAR section, as well as the Platinum sub-forum. Hopefully we'll get some newcomers to the Throne room expressing interested by posting in this thread.

[TinCow]

I'm currently playing a campaign with the Metropolis & Naval Mod. Seems to be working fine; I'll let you know if I see any bugs.

[shifty157]

Im interested but i dont have time over the next few days to read this entire thread. Can someone give a quick overview? Thanks.

[TinCow]

Ok, brief summary:

This will be a PBM where the entire body of participants contributes to the on-going campaign, whether playing the current 'round' or not. We will all be members of the 'Senate' and will generally decide what will happen through debate and voting on the forums. There will always be a single 'Consul', elected by majority vote in the Senate, who will be responsible for playing the actual game itself. He will serve for a 5 year term (20 game turns, using the 4 turns per year mod) and his actions will be reported back to the Senate regularly.

Each Senator will represent an actual Roman family member present in the game. You will know your traits, family connections, etc. All battles will be auto-calc UNLESS the general of the army is the current Consul. In addition, if a Senator's in-game family member is involved in a battle, the Consul will pass off the save game to that Senator for that single battle. Essentially, you will control everything involving the family member that represents YOU in the game. Using politics you can negotiate with other Senators and with the Consuls to get postings to the best cities with the best academies, to be assigned leadership of legions or even to be the next Consul yourself. Alternatively, you can sit back and simply aggitate as a member of the Senate... passing legislation (requirements that the Consul must try and fulfill) and otherwise politicing as you please without needing to play any turns. When your character dies, you will be assigned a new one when one becomes available (probably instantly).

We're still working out the finer points, but that's the gist of it. Oh, and it will be played using the Rome: Total Realism mod and some other sub-mods.

[flyd]

This sounds like a great idea, I'm in, lower house.

Comments on rules. I'm for the manifesto idea, but also senate directives, or missions, and at least one senate session during the consul's term. But I'm not sure that we should slow the player down. Instead he could play at any speed, while providing regular reports. The senate would not be in session, and there would be no formal deliberation. But once the consul hit the middle of his term, he would pause. Senate would enter session, deliberate things, and perhaps issue directives. Once they're done, the consul would continue.

Additionally, the senate speaker would perhaps have the ability to call an emergency session at any time, should something come up, which would, possibly pause the game again while the senate is in session, or would perhaps not. Perhaps the speaker would have two types of emergency session to call. I haven't quite made up my mind on this part.

And thirdly, there could be certain actions which the consul could not undertake without the permission of the senate, like starting a war, for example, but also possibly other things like forming an alliance, or even getting a ceasefire.

[Mount Suribachi]

And thirdly, there could be certain actions which the consul could not undertake without the permission of the senate, like starting a war, for example, but also possibly other things like forming an alliance, or even getting a ceasefire.

Definately!

[Avicenna]

My proposal: We start off at war with the Greeks. I say take the 2 rebel settlements first and then drive Pyrrhus' army off Italia and send them man himself to an early grave. After that, Taras and Croton should be lightly defended, and then taking Rhegion allows us to concentrate our efforts on whoever we want: the Carthaginians in Sicily or the Gauls in Cispaline Gaul.

Anyone up for a vote now?

By the way, could we disallow younger members to join the senate? Also, unless they're closely related to the most influential member or the faction leader, we shouldn't allow any randomer to join the senate. I've played 2 RTR Roman campaigns, and Decius Laevinius always seems to turn out as a bit of a useless waste of space with almost no positive traits whatsoever. We should have a minimum of, say, 1 influence and 1 in command or management to join the senate, unless well-connected.

Also, if we follow TinCow's suggestion of one week's deliberation and voting, I don't think I'll be on for long enough, unless I just take command for a few short years of 1 week each. I'll also be unable to take command if attacked, so my character should be auto'ed unless I've stated that I'm in a holiday.

[Mount Suribachi]

By the way, could we disallow younger members to join the senate? Also, unless they're closely related to the most influential member or the faction leader, we shouldn't allow any randomer to join the senate. I've played 2 RTR Roman campaigns, and Decius Laevinius always seems to turn out as a bit of a useless waste of space with almost no positive traits whatsoever. We should have a minimum of, say, 1 influence and 1 in command or management to join the senate, unless well-connected.

I disagree completely! See, we're arguing like Roman Senators already!

Membership of the Senate was by birthright, not by ability. Being an in-bred, stupid, arrogant buffoon shouldn't bar someone from the Senate, indeed some Patricians would regard them as virtues suitable for the Consulship! Half the fun for me would be the role-playing of all the different avatars, good and bad. Birth, breeding (and money) are much more important to a patrician than ability. If we get a moron as Consul, so the better as far as I'm concerned

As for age, whilst 30 was the minimum age for membership of the Senate (though there were exceptions, eg Julius Caeser), I think for gameplay purposes, limiting avatars under 30 to the upper house is a good comprimise between historicity and fun.

Finally, war with Greece. Well, I'd have to wait till I see the state of the game at the start, and see which traits my avatar has before I decide on that. The Roman Senate was notoriously mistrustful of wars and foreign adventures - costs money you know!

[econ21]

Good to see some new faces here - welcome, FLYdude and shifty157.

Let's pencil in RTR Platinum with the Metropolis mod for now, so people can install that and try it out solo. I'd like use to elect a First Consul by Friday, so he/she has the weekend to play. People can table proposals like Tiberius has done to prompt discussion. I'll gradually formalise things so that we have some direction by the end of the week.

Based on the discussion so far, proposed new/ammended rules:

(1) Declarations of war, alliances and ceasefires require a Senate vote.
(2) Family members under 30 are restricted to the Uppper House unless there are exceptional circumstances (ie the Senate votes to waive the rule in a particular case).
(3) There must be an mid-term session of the Senate during the 3rd year of a Consuls reign.
(4) The Consul should provide regular reports - e.g. annual. The pace of reports may be specified by the Senate.
(5) The Speaker can summon an emergency session of Senate at any time (ie a pause in play). The Senate is always open for deliberation (ie pontificating!) but only votes at a full session.
(6) The Senate can modify all game rules by a 2/3 majority.

Also, I've been thinking about involving Senators with avatars more in the game. Fighting out their own battles is the biggie, of course. And players will want to lobby for command, over strategy etc to this end. But for governors, I think they should be allowed at each Senate session to set their own taxes and construction priorities (we'll leave training units to the First Consul). The First Consul may deviate from those instructions with reason (e.g. he has to balance the books) but of course there may be a political price.

I'm going to PM some of the other active PBMers to see if they want to join in. I'd like to start calling the Senate to order over the next few days.

EDIT - LATEST RULES ARE ON SECOND POST OF THIS THREAD AND WILL BE CONTINUOUSLY UPDATED:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...29&postcount=2

[Mount Suribachi]

Technical question. I d'loaded and installed RTRPE last night. I got it to boot up, past the intro to the menu screens. But every time I tried to start a battle or a campaign I got a CTD.

I think it might be because I'm not using a "clean" install - I copied my RTW folder, which includes things like bug-fixer. I did this cos I couldn't figure out how to manually install a fresh copy of RTW, all the CD wanted to do was let me uninstall my original install.

So how do I do a clean install of RTW without deleting my original install?

Oh, and I thought BI was meant to include a mod-switch so you could play numerous mods on 1 install?

[econ21]

Well, you are doing better than me, Mount - I can't even download the mod!

One thing you could try is deleting a file "map.rwm". That is sometimes necessary for some mods to work.

[Mount Suribachi]

Already did that.

EDIT: Looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and uninstall then reinstall

[Dutch_guy]

Econ, I've seen your post in the Chapter house, good initiative !

Maybe you should also post one in the colosseum, which has a lot more viewers than the chapter house.

Further more, this idea is getting better and better, I like what FLYdude mentioned earlier:

And thirdly, there could be certain actions which the consul could not undertake without the permission of the senate, like starting a war, for example, but also possibly other things like forming an alliance, or even getting a ceasefire.

This makes the senate a real force to deal with, and makes them as important as they were historically. Also, it gives the players in the senate - who don't actually play a reign - the chance to influence the game.

[YAKOBU]

Hi everyone and thanks SA for the PM

I've had my eye on this thread over the last few days but have not wanted to commit as of yet. The end of next week is my year-end at work and as I work in the Finance Department I will be a little busy. I'm sure I will still find time to check out the org every day though. If you want me to participate in a limited capacity then I offer my services

[Dutch_guy]

Maybe you should also post one in the colosseum, which has a lot more viewers than the chapter house.

He already did that you fool, think before you post...

[Mount Suribachi]

Hi everyone and thanks SA for the PM

I've had my eye on this thread over the last few days but have not wanted to commit as of yet. The end of next week is my year-end at work and as I work in the Finance Department I will be a little busy. I'm sure I will still find time to check out the org every day though. If you want me to participate in a limited capacity then I offer my services

Thats the great thing about this PBEM, you can tailor your participation to your free time. Got a week off? Run for Consul, or campaign for a governorship. Busy at work? Sit in the upper house and vote now and then

[econ21]

One other rule I've just thought of - it was one of Kukrikhan's old ones, but is arguably the best single rule for a PBM: the incumbent player must post every two days. It could just be a holding message ("Busy with domestic duties."), but it should help stop people disappearing for weeks - and eventually for good - while everyone else loses interest. It would fit particularly well into this PBM, with its emphasis on reporting to the Senate and taking up a reign when you have the time for it.

[TinCow]

Already did that.

EDIT: Looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and uninstall then reinstall

Are you sure you removed them both? I had the same problem and it turned out there are two copies of map.rwm, in different folders. When I removed them both, it worked fine. The two folders were:

...\Data\world\maps\base
...\Data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign

[Mount Suribachi]

I shall try it tonight and see.

[Avicenna]

Can anyone give me the .zip file of 1.5? I've got multiple copies of RTW and I can't remember which the original is...

[TinCow]

I did a fresh install and downloaded 1.2, 1.3 and 1.5 from here:

http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/r...downloads.html

[Dutch_guy]

Econ,

Do the upper house members get assigned an avatar too, or is that limited to the lower house members - who do the playing.

I take it they both can, but would like some assurance on the matter.

[TinCow]

Avatars will be assigned to everyone when they become available, though it would make sense to give lower house members priority.

Having played for a while with RTR Platinum and the Metropolis et. al. mods, I have to say this will be fabulous from a role-play perspective. There's so much detail in the added character traits. Faction members come of age as students and are meant to spend the first 4 years in an academy (building one in Rome should probably be one of our first priorities). After that they advance to tribune, where they are meant to act as a second in the field armies. Beyond that their careers continue in great detail, indicating their seniority and influence. There is even a large number of traits dealing with family issues. All in all, I'm very impressed.

[econ21]

Dutch_guy eventually there will be plenty of avatars to go round, so everyone should get one. Indeed, this may be an important incentive for the Senate demanding conquest - more provinces => more faction members! But early on, family members are scarce and so priority will go to the lower house, especially those wanting to stand for Consul immediately.

Which leads me on to...

Given the aim of getting this campaign going by next weekend, the immediate priority is assigning avatars to members of the lower House. At the start of the Rome campaign, there are only 4 adult family members ("avatars"), so only a maximum of 4 players can stand for election as Consul. There are also 3 under-age avatars to be assigned.

So, please post below in this thread picking one of the 3 options:

1) Lower house, candidate for Consul
2) Lower house, not a candidate for Consul at the moment
3) Upper house

Priority in assigning avatars will go to candidates, then other lower house members. Where there are ties, we'll go on a "first-come-first-served" principle, where this applies to the first time you posted in this thread, not to the when you post confirmation. The deadline for confirming participation is 6pm UK time Tuesday 23. I will then assign avatars. People may still join after that date, but they may then have to wait for avatars.

Notes:

If you pick option (1) you are confirming:
(a) you have successfully installed RTR Platinum and the Metropolis mod for it (ie you've started up a campaign with no crashes etc).
(b) you who would like to start the campaign of next weekend

If you pick option (2) you are confirming:
(a) you have successfully installed RTR Platinum and the Metropolis mod for it.
(b) you could fight a battle at 2 days notice if their avatar gets into a scrap.

If you pick option (3) you are confirming that you will be an active member of the Senate, voting on elections and motions etc.

Remember, you can always freely switch between houses, but avatars will be assigned - and re-assigned - in order to give priority to lower house members. We don't want to autoresolve battles involving faction members.

EDIT: updated list of provisional participants in post #2. .

[econ21]

Just to confirm, I will enter the lower house and stand for Consul.

[Dutch_guy]

Dutch_guy eventually there will be plenty of avatars to go round, so everyone should get one. Indeed, this may be an important incentive for the Senate demanding conquest - more provinces => more faction members! But early on, family members are scarce and so priority will go to the lower house, especially those wanting to stand for Consul immediately.

That sounds good, thanks for the information.

As for now, I'd like to pick option 3

If you pick option (3) you are confirming that you will be an active member of the Senate, voting on elections and motions etc.

Oh and by the way, do members of the upper house vote on who get's assigned consul, or is that just for the lower house, or for both - if there even is a vote on the matter.

[YAKOBU]

Confirming I will enter the Upper House but may step down to Lower House but not be a candidate for Consul if needed.

[econ21]

... do members of the upper house vote on who get's assigned consul, or is that just for the lower house, or for both -

Both - the whole Senate votes on elections, on motions etc. Every member gets one vote + one vote for each point of influence their avatar has.

The only distinction between the upper and lower house is that lower house members are expected to be available to load up a savegame - e.g. to fight a battle. Upper house members need never load a savegame (or install the mod etc), although they can always step down into the lower house when they want to get involved in a more hands-on way.

[SwordsMaster]

Sure, I'll take a seat in the Senate too. Upper house, please, with nice views.

EDIT: Just had a thought. Members of the Senate need not be members of the family, so we can use the ones provided with vanilla RTW from all 4 roman factions too, as avatars, I mean. And only for the upper house, as they will not actually be in the game.

EDIT 2: ok, last thing. Could anybody please post a map of the world as it is in the mod at the top of the IC thread? It'd be handy to be able to see where cities and provinces are for the senators when making decisions...