The Will of the Senate - out of character thread

[Braden]

Carthage – I agreed with Ignoramus that we don’t have to worry about them yet, none of the proposals currently authorise an invasion of Sicily but only the amalgamation of Italy into the Republic……….to be honest I see a period of consolidation after this fast expansion and we’ll have many more than just three troop producing cities at the point we do cross the straits.

Garrisons - Have to admit that I know nothing about RTR, have never played it so my knowledge and hence advise about what we can support is likely to be out. However from DDW’s figures I don’t think that 5 years is too long if that’s how long it takes to ensure Italy is “secured” before moving on…..

……”Rome wasn’t built in a day” after all and, say we have captured the additional SEVEN settlements DDW mentions above in quite short order – say 2-3 years –, surely a longer period of stabilisation, building and securing is the normal thing in any game of Rome?

[econ21]

Remember I am giving players the options of modding down the bandit and pirate spawn rate. I am certainly going to do that, as detailed on post #2 here. In the past, my RTR and EB games as the Romans have been as much about fighting tiny stacks of rebels as fighting enemy armies - I don't want to do that this time round. It doesn't feel realistic and it's not fun.

But I think a system of forts would add to the realism: according to the "true Roman" guide, Roman armies typically did not garrison cities. It's not quite clear what we should use as garrisons - there's no "town guard" type unit. I'd be inclined to use a mix of infantry - just as our historical pre-Marian armies are going to be mixed - so we can shuffle them around to make up losses as need be.

In my most recent game, I used forts as holding areas for all the very depleted units that I would gradually call upon to top up the stacks in my armies. They were kind of staging areas, where I could put together a collection of replacements that a Tribune would march to the front. Remember, we can't retrain to make up losses and, as DDW says, RTR stops you recruiting in recently captured areas, so shuffling replacements and reinforcements to the front is going to be an important part of the game. Captains move slower than generals in this mod, so it may be efficient to assign some family members to these supply chains. Forts would also allow generals to keep adding military experience (indeed, I think it probably was partly Marcus Camillus's intention when designing his traits system to encourage armies not to loiter in cities).

Overtime, I think we should move to a system where, at least among the lower house, governors are the older experienced family members (ex-generals etc get influence bonuses), but the younger ones are working on their military careers. Upper House members might be suitable as Tribunes (ie second general in a full stack) if young and governors if older. But if the Upper House members want to move down into the Lower House at some stage, we should develop their military careers too.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I agree 5 years is a realistic period. This will most like end up in 6-7 years if we indeed put a small garrison in each city. It will stretch our resources to the very limit to build enough Auxilia building to actually expand our troop building capacity. Buildings are hideously expensive, and rightly so.

A 4-unit garrison can withstand a small force which might land at our coasts behind the lines. It also has the added benifit of supressing unrest (only a real problem in the greek colonies). I generally garrison with italian spear and swordsmen in equal numbers, as they are cheap, yet effective.
I find that a city with a garrison smaller than 4 units tends to act as a irresistable magnet to any enemy army nearby. The rebels tend not to attack cities very often, but they do. A small garrison in each city prevents the domino-effect, where you get blitzed by the AI. These garrisons are expensive, but we can afford it.

I also station praetorian legions in strategic locations in forts with generals. This also helps to keep down the rebels.

Having said all this, I think troop management is the responsibility of the first consul and he should do as he sees fit.

I agree with Econ21, they brought Cincinnatus out of retirement to be Dictator when he was 80 years old, so I don't have a problem with venerable senators leading armies. I recommend following the guide of Conduct concerning generals.

[econ21]

Having said all this, I think troop management is the responsibility of the first consul and he should do as he sees fit.

Absolutely, but players are rather constrained by the historical armies guidelines. It's hard to do at the beginning, as we have lots of Romans and few Italians. But over time, half the stacks should be Italians or other allies/auxilia, with the right proportions of the different Roman infantry etc. It should not be too much of a problem, because - as you say - the non-Romans are cheaper and are still servicable. (The Italian swordsmen are very like hastati).

I think the historical armies are fun from a gameplay point of view, because you end with such a varied roster, about 10 different unit types in a single stack. It means you have lots of fun battlefield decisions to make - e.g. where should the allies go? who should the one or two missile and cavalry units target? etc where are the princeps most needed?

RTR PE 1.5 is now out:

http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...owtopic=20459#

I'm going to play around with it and then create a savegame that the First Consul can use to start this PBM.

[Avicenna]

By the way, we should put priority to capturing Greece or Carthage, for their units

[Braden]

Simon, DDW & TinCow, as I’ve just mentioned on another thread I’m completely impressed with this PBM you’re running, the very concept of player involvement is wonderful.

I hope to be able to emulate it in the future. Basically though, I’m finding the array of mods you’re using bewildering to me. I don’t even know where to start to change my Rome version 1.5 over to RTR, let along amend the relevant data files that are listed here.

Anyway, I’m never “that” confident in modding my own files and partitioning save games/Mods like you – we’ve discussed this on PM.

However, what I would like to achieve is a less complex version of your PBM for more entry level PBM’ers – so at the very least I’m looking at using RTR so I can have a Senate of players. See the blatant plagiarism here?

Perhaps it may even be something you’d consider starting once this PBM is well under way? Personally, I can’t undertake my own proposal until I’ve upgraded my PC, which is after I’ve moved home…which is whenever the surveyor gets back to me!....sorry, won’t rant about that issue here.

So, just to say I utterly LOVE this basic idea – Senate control, auto-resolve battles unless there is a PC (Player Character) physically involved, voting, political discussion….all that is just great! As an NPC (Non-Player Character), I’m really enjoying myself just as a member of the Upper Senate….I shudder to think how much MORE fun I’d have if I had a chance of actually conducting a battle now and then.

Well done all involved here, I salute you. This PBM is a “benchmark” for all other PBM’s to work by.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

RTR PE 1.5 is now out:

http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...owtopic=20459#

I'm going to play around with it and then create a savegame that the First Consul can use to start this PBM.

As far as I can see, this will not relieve our patchwork. As the changes in RTR 1.5 are not specfically for metronavalmod, all this changes in my list of installing is :

REPLACE :
3. Install the Corrected_RTR_Platinum_Files_v2.0.zip
Files belong in \Data
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...c=18768&st=120
WITH :
3. Install RTR 1.5 patch.
http://www.beaglepc.net/rome/downloa...v1.5_Patch.exe

Also, we should add between step (5) and (6) :
5A. Install Update2 for METROPOLIS & NAVALMOD by Snake_IV
Unzip these files and add them MANUALLY in \Data
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...pic=20000&st=0

That's all I can say from work.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I hope to be able to emulate it in the future. Basically though, I’m finding the array of mods you’re using bewildering to me. I don’t even know where to start to change my Rome version 1.5 over to RTR, let along amend the relevant data files that are listed here.

Anyway, I’m never “that” confident in modding my own files and partitioning save games/Mods like you – we’ve discussed this on PM.

Hi,
As the Senate Fixer, I would be glad to help you with getting it all up and running. I can see it would be a bit bewildering at first, but the truth is, it is actually quite easy. Most of the modifications concern text files in the \Data directory. The rest is just a matter of downloading and installing. I'll be glad to answer any specfic questions you might have.
On the matter of starting a new PBM, don't let me stop you. I personally would not play a RTW 1.2 game anymore, as the improvements in 1.5 as so good, there's no going back for me :) I'll probably sit in the upper house if you were to run a RTR 6 gold game for example.
On the matter of playing, once this campaign is well underway, more avatars will be available and you will be able to get some 'action' as it were :)

[econ21]

Thanks for the advice, DDW. Based on what you say, I have updated post #2 with how I intend to install the mod.

I will start the campaign, immediately save a game and then upload the save to the Org. It would be good if when you get home, you download the save and see if it works fine on your install.

Braden: I understand how you feel about installing mods. As you can see from this thread, it's particularly confusing in this case as we are essentially using beta mods and they keep changing. There is some light at the end of the tunnel, though, as Marcus Camillus has proposed locking down the final version of Platinum and then letting people do their own thing with any further mods.

On doing another PBM, my inclination would be to let this one and your Carthaginian one play out for a while. The pool of potential players is only so big. And this one is very much a prototype so while the ideas in it sound really good, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating!

[Braden]

I feel confident that once RTR Platinum has been finalised will use that as a basis for a PBM. I, like DDW, would never go back to anything running under version 1.2 of Vanilla – I personally found the Load/Save bug intolerable.

My current PBM plans are:

1. Maintain focus and momentum in the current Carthage 1.5 PBM.

2. Play Test to establish an “entry level” PBM (BI or Rome 1.5, undecided)

3. Plan ahead (looking a month or so) to a RTR Platinum PBM using similar (though simplified) rules to this Senate one.

I’m not going to overstretch the player base by committing to the my RTR PBM until this RTR PBM is well underway – looking August/September perhaps.

I want to keep my “entry level” PBM quite small, stipulating it is for beginners to PBM’s – hence it will have some specific rules but nothing too complex (perhaps using a more familiar faction), whilst keeping the core game at a VH/Medium setting to challenge the players who are good at the vanilla game but looking for a new challenge. Again though, the start of this will not be for a good few weeks.

[Avicenna]

Can I suggest trying to play another mod Braden? I think after one RTR Roman PBM, the PBM community will prefer to try another mod or another faction. Or, if you do want a Roman RTR PBM badly, we could always download a mod for RTR and use that in the PBM.

[Braden]

Currently I'm considering all options for my third PBM. I'll keep everyone posted and, I'm sure, ask for help when I select what mod I need to run! lol

[Mount Suribachi]

By the way, we should put priority to capturing Greece or Carthage, for their units

Thats not a very realistic role-playing target though is it?

[shifty157]

Currently I'm considering all options for my third PBM. I'll keep everyone posted and, I'm sure, ask for help when I select what mod I need to run! lol

I think itd be pretty nice to start a PBM that uses Myrdraals script. It would be a three person PBM using RTW Vanilla 1.5 (perhaps with some small mods) and each player would play one of the three Roman factions. I think itd be really interesting to see them truly jokey for power and then finally turn on eachother.

Or my other idea was to play a PBM with five or so people again with Myrdraals script. Each player could choose whatever faction they wanted. Then after a given amount of time (5-10 years) the players would be reassigned a new faction at random. The reassignments would continue to happen throughout the game.

[econ21]

I have done what I hope is my "final" install of all the mods we need for this PBM. I have explained the procedures in grisly detail in post #2.

But in principle, the sequence I followed is simple. First install RTR Platinum Edition (PE) 1.5. Then install Metropolis and Naval (MN) mod. Finally there's a little add-on to put some landblocks in.

The complications stem from the fact that the MN mod is older than the PE one, so I think it is over-writing some important files. This causes the problem that we noted about starting Roman generals not having the military experience they need to get all those cool new Roman leadership traits. I hope that this will get sorted out by the RTR people in due course.

However, as a work around, I have given instructions to download the latest EDU file (the one that determines unit stats) and a DESCR_STRAT file (the one that determines the starting characters and units) that I have modded to put in the lost military experience.

Candidates for First Consul may like to know that these are the additional traits that Marcus Camillus assigned to them:

Quintus - 25 years military experience, former consul (+4 influence)
Publius Laevinus - 10 years military experience, former tribune (+1 influence)
Tiberius Coruncanius - 8 years military experience, former tribune (+1 influence)
Lucius Amelius - 7 years military experience, former tribune (+1 infuence)

Note that experience is basically a function of age (although when the game starts, you will have to avoid staying in settlements for more than one turn to gain experience). The former tribune trait is a precondition for being a legate.

I am going to upload my 280 BC savegame, senate280v.zip, for DDW to try out. If it works and he approves my installation procedure as explained in post#2, then we are ready to go once we have the election result 6pm today.

I must confess I am apprehensive that we are going to encounter technical problems as we play this mod. That's the price of choosing a beta mod to play. But hopefully we will find work arounds. We have some plusses on our side:
(1) Marcus Camillus, the man responsible for the leadership traits, will be joining us after 6 June.
(2) Most updates to the mods we are using seem to be savegame compatible (that's a biggie)
(3) If the worst comes to the worst, we may have to reload and replay some years - we'll just have to be flexible.

[Braden]

Shifty157, PM or email some details and links regarding Myrdraals script. I know nothing of it but the concept sounds interesting though perhaps too narrowed in base, would be ideal for a “friends” game though rather than a Forum based game.

- sorry everyone, seems I’m monopolising the forums today!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I have done what I hope is my "final" install of all the mods we need for this PBM. I have explained the procedures in grisly detail in post #2.
...

I must confess I am apprehensive that we are going to encounter technical problems as we play this mod. .

I've read your modifications and they seem fine. Why would you have a problem with rapidshare ?

I won't be home till 7 or 8 pm, but I'll reinstall and try it out then. I must express some confidence here. I do not really expect any problems or CTDs. The stability so far has been examplary.

Upcoming interesting (save-compatible) bugfix :
Fix for cathapract archers that are acting wierd.

[econ21]

I've read your modifications and they seem fine. Why would you have a problem with rapidshare ?

I think it is something to do with my using a router so I don't have a fixed ISP address (I have a dynamic one, whatever that means). Consequently, Rapidshare stops me downloading because they think I've downloaded too much when in fact it is other people. I had to pay some Euros to get a premium account in order to download the Metro&Naval mod. I wish Macedonn would find another way of uploading his mod.

I've saved a game - am about to upload it now. Don't worry about testing it quickly. BTW, I was going to go into a rant on the RTR boards about negative population growth, then I realised I had not deleted the *.rwm files! (easy to do when you are incrementally testing installs).

[econ21]

Quick query: how do people feel about the length of this Senate session?

Here's the schedule we followed:

Monday 6pm: session opens
Wednesday 6pm: deadline for motions and First Consul nominations; voting starts
Friday 6pm: voting ends

I think this timetable was long enough - was it too long? I'm thinking ahead to the next full session of Senate and election of next First Consul. We've agreed the mid-term will be shorter (2 days debate/proposing motions/1 day voting).

I think it was probably ok, but I feel that the last day or so has dragged. How about a 24 hour voting period? On reflection, I guess I'm really proposing extending the mid-term model for all sessions - 2 days debate; 1 day voting.

It's not a big issue, but maintaining momentum is key in PBMs and so if people feel we could hurry things up a little, I'm all for it.

[shifty157]

Shifty157, PM or email some details and links regarding Myrdraals script. I know nothing of it but the concept sounds interesting though perhaps too narrowed in base, would be ideal for a “friends” game though rather than a Forum based game.

- sorry everyone, seems I’m monopolising the forums today!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=64876

Its really rather simple to set up and it works with any mod at all.

[TinCow]

I think this timetable was long enough - was it too long? I'm thinking ahead to the next full session of Senate and election of next First Consul. We've agreed the mid-term will be shorter (2 days debate/proposing motions/1 day voting).

I think a 5 day week is entirely appropriate. It allowed us to have a rather nice, in-depth debate on the issues yet was long enough to bring it to a close eventually. We have to embrace the fact that this is a PBM (is it even right to call it that anymore?) that will span many months. I easily forsee this going 6 months, perhaps longer. That's assuming people hang around for it and it doesn't die off like a lot of normal PBMs do. That's the aspect econ21 was cautioning Braden about as well: this looks nice now, but we can't call it a success until we're a month or two in and everything is still working properly.

[Avicenna]

Master econ, after reading post #2 I've noticed you mentioned Iberia twice in your list of factions to be destroyed. Once as Iberia, another time as Spain.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I am suggesting a combat rule. If you get reinforcements in battle and the reinforcements do not have an avatar assigned, they should be assigned to computer control, with the exception when you are sieging a city.
I myself find it quite amusing to have to anticipate an unpredictable AI as an ally. What do you think ?

[Mount Suribachi]

I agree DDW

As for the senate, I felt it dragged a little. Got a little bored with the endless arguments about the minutae of the conflict with Greece...Maybe 3 days deliberation?

[Avicenna]

Better still: put mercenaries, unless the commanding officer of the army has a 'mercenary captain' ancillary, under computer control. After all, you just paid them to fight. Not to fight your way. Just fight.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Just a tiny technical point :

Optional setting: brigand_spawn_value 50 pirate_spawn_value 60 [1]
is not optional as it is set in the descr_strat.txt in senate.zip :)
I say remove 'Optional setting' from the sentence and leave it as it is as :
a) There is much argument is setting this helps anyway.
b) If it helps that's fine by me.

More technical hubris :
Sanky has released his EDU fix for cavalry units (1.5 & M&N compatible)
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20472
Interesting, but not crucial. Will just let that ferment for a couple of days and see what the response is.

Well, done reinstalling. Let's see if this works...

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Econ21, I am for short discussing and voting periods. I'm in favour of 2 days discussion and 1 day voting. This will keep pace with the 2-day required post of the first consul. Good luck, by the way :)

I like your way of thinking Tiberius, but it think that would be undoable in practice and I feel the generals had a bit more control over their mercenaries than that.

[econ21]

OK, I have not started yet, so I will download the lastest EDU. I'm not sure to what extent we can keep updating EDUs as we play, but I suspect we can. I guess that means I have to change the library table with the Romans' stats.

I agree think non-siege reinforcements should be AI controlled if led by captains - I'll add that to the rules. But let's leave the mercs under our control. Mercs seem hideously expensive in this mod, so I'm not sure they will be a major part of our forces and making them uncontrollable might just rule out them being bought entirely.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Drat drat drat, I get a CTD when I attack Pyrrhus his army. I will investigate in more detail tomorrow. My attack on Corfinium went without a glitch. Not sure what the problem could be.

[Avicenna]

It's doable, DDW. Select the mercenaries in the battle map,m and click 'put under AI assistance' button on the right.