The Will of the Senate - out of character thread

[Xiahou Liao]

I was thinking of doing one of these again. I missed the Spanish one. :( Job got in the way. I'm open to any of the Factions, just not the huge ones...like the Selecuids......you know. Open to suggestions.

[econ21]

PBM campaign - “The Will of the Senate”

EDIT: THIS POST WILL NO LONGER BE MAINTAINED BUT HAS BEEN COPIED TO THE FAQ THREAD

Briefly, what it is all about:

:This will be a PBM where the entire body of participants contributes to the on-going campaign, whether playing the current 'round' or not. We will all be members of the 'Senate' and will generally decide what will happen through debate and voting on the forums. There will always be a single 'Consul', elected by majority vote in the Senate, who will be responsible for playing the actual game itself. He will serve for a 5 year term (20 game turns, using the 4 turns per year mod) and his actions will be reported back to the Senate regularly.

Each Senator will represent an actual Roman family member present in the game. You will know your traits, family connections, etc. All battles will be auto-calc UNLESS the general of the army is the current Consul. In addition, if a Senator's in-game family member is involved in a battle, the Consul will pass off the save game to that Senator for that single battle. Essentially, you will control everything involving the family member that represents YOU in the game. Using politics you can negotiate with other Senators and with the Consuls to get postings to the best cities with the best academies, to be assigned leadership of legions or even to be the next Consul yourself. Alternatively, you can sit back and simply aggitate as a member of the Senate... passing legislation (requirements that the Consul must try and fulfill) and otherwise politicing as you please without needing to play any turns. When your character dies, you will be assigned a new one when one becomes available (probably instantly).

We're still working out the finer points, but that's the gist of it. Oh, and it will be played using the Rome: Total Realism mod and some other sub-mods.

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The Play Order

The list of participants will now be maintained in the first post of the Senate deliberations thread.

People may join the campaign at any time, although the order in which people first post in this thread will be their "seniority" in the campaign and affect the assignment of faction members to be their "avatars". Priority in assigning avatars will go to lower house members, with seniority being a tie breaker. Ultimately as the Republic grows, we should have 30+ faction members, so every one - Upper and Lower House - should have an-game representation.

Anyone who joins the Lower House of the Senate is confirming:
(a) you have successfully installed RTR Platinum and the Metropolis mod for it.
(b) you could fight a battle at 2 days notice if your avatar gets into a scrap.

Anyone who joins the Upper House is confirming they will be an active member of the Senate, voting on elections and motions etc.

Remember, you can always freely switch between houses, but avatars may be re-assigned in order to give priority to lower house members. We don't want to autoresolve battles involving faction members.


=========================================================================
THE NITTY GRITTY

CURRENT RULES:

Game version - We are playing the Metropolis and Naval mod for Rome Total Realism Platinum Edition.
Follow these steps to install the mod:

(1) Start with vanilla RTW patched to 1.5 (1.6 if you have BI); note the 1.5 patch requires installing 1.3 first.
It is recommend that you use windows explorer to copy your RTW directory and everything in it.
Then rename the coped folder "RTR-Platinum" or something and mod this folder, leaving your vanilla RTW in tact.

(2) Install RTR Platinum Edition 1.5.
Currently, this involves two stages: installing the 1.0 Full release (aka 1.4 beta):
http://www.rometotalrealism.org/files/RTR_Platinum.exe
And patching it to 1.5 using the update:
http://www.beaglepc.net/rome/downloa...v1.5_Patch.exe

(4) Install the Metropolis and Naval mod for Platinum
This is explained in:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20000
Current version is 1.4; updated 2 June.

(5) Install the parthia/bactria landblock + africa landblock, and fix for a few map problems etc:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20850

(6) Delete map.rwm from
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\base
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\campaign\base
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign

CRITICAL WARNING FOR ALL PLAYERS !!!
As you load the game, wait for the advisor to pop up (you do not need to have advice on, it will show up anyway). Click on the show-me-how button to activate the mod. If you forget to do this, you will probably mess up the savegame and at the very least mess up the scripting for four turns per year and Roman leadership. Now you can start playing. You need to do this EVERY TIME you load or start a game.

Settings:
VH campaigns; M battles
Large unit size
Timer on
Fog of war on

Player rules:
*1) No retraining, except ships and full units (to get upgrades). Mercenaries can be merged with AOR units.
2) No extermination (except Carthage).
*3) Fleets can only transport on a 1:1 basis (e.g. one tireme: 1 unit)
4) Historical armies - see below
5) No army may leave Roman territory unless it has a General in command.
6) All battles with captains are autoresolved. Non-siege battle reinforcements led by captains should be placed under AI control.
7) Battles with faction members can be fought manually if the avatar is controlled by a member of the Lower House who plays out the battle within 2 days, otherwise they are autoresolved.
9) Regular reports should provided to Senate. The Consul must post every two days - it could be just a holding message ("Spending time attending to various work duties"), rather than a full report. The purpose is to avoid savegames disappearing for weeks (and encourage interaction with the Senate).
10) Players should post mid-term (after 10 turns) and end-term (after 20 turn) reports in the First Consul reports thread. This will be in character, but include a screenshot of the map, the savegame and a description of the key facts (allies, enemies etc). Players deceiving the Senate are unlikely to garner many votes. Players providing colourful write-ups may be rewarded.
*11) Declarations of war, alliances, ceasefires and relocation of the capital require a Senate vote.
*12) The player must inform the Senate Speaker asap of new faction members when they are spawned (including infants), so that they may be assigned to participants. Please give full details - name, date and season of spawn, relation to family tree, age, location, stats, traits, ancillaries, everything.
13) The game will end when the following factions are destroyed: Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul, Numidia.
14) Players are encouraged to read Quintus’ guide to being a true Roman for inspiration - e.g. on how to assign faction members by age to armies and provinces.
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=12035

Ancillaries
(1) Ancillaries normally should not be swapped without the consent of the participants controlling the avatars with the following exceptions.
(2) Chirurgeons and turncoats can be freely assigned by First Consuls.
(3) Priests can be removed from a character if that character is to stay in a settlement with the relevant temple.
(4) Characters who have 6 ancillaries, can have one ancillary transfered to another character (in order to allow the spawing of other ancillaries).
(5) The special ancillaries created by Marcus Camillus - the legion, field and Consular army traits, the quaestor of Roma trait - can be transferred by the First Consul but only to characters qualified - or about to qualify - for them and who are staced with suitably sized armies. eg legios => ex-Tribunes with 10 years experience etc.

Participants, Consuls and avatars
1) The player with the savegame is the (First) Consul and plays out a “reign” of 20 turns unless (a) their avatar dies; or (b) they resign the post (including resigning for premature re-election).
2) Participants must elect to join the upper or lower house of the Senate. Participants may switch between houses at any stage by notifying the Senate speaker.
3) Members of the lower house must be willing at some point to act as Consul (play the game) and ready to fight battles manually during the reign of another Consul within 48 hours of notification.
4) Members of the lower house will be assigned a faction member to act as their “avatar” in the game on a first come first served basis.
5) Members of the upper house are not expected to act as Consul or to fight battles. They will be assigned an avatar subject to availability.
6) Members currently without avatars will be “ghost” senators, with full rights.
7) Members whose avatars die will be assigned new avatars subject to the procedures outline above.
8) Members will be periodically informed of the traits and ancillaries of their avatars and will be expected to “role play” them. This will involve respecting bonds of family (e.g. sons should defer to fathers, unless they are “rotten kids”).
9) Dormant participants - who miss two or more Senate votes etc - may have their avatars reassigned.
10) Family members under 30 are restricted to the Uppper House unless there are exceptional circumstances (ie the Senate votes to waive the rule in a particular case). The reported arrival of King Pyrrhus in South Italy is one such circumstance, so it is likely Tiberius Coruncanius and Lucius Amelius will be assigned to the Lower House, by Speaker's perogative.
11) The future Princeps Senatus (Faction heir) will be elected by the Senate on the death of the Princeps Senatus. Future Princeps Senatus will not be disinherited except by a Senate vote in exceptional circumstances (impeachement etc).

Senate proceedings and election of First Consuls
1) A thread will be created devoted to Senate deliberations. All members can post - in character only - any deliberations or thoughts they have during the campaign. The Senate is always in session for debate.
2) Full Senate sessions - where votes are made - will occur in the 3 day interregnums between Consulates; in a mid-term session in the 3rd year of a Consulate; and in emergency sessions.
3) In end-term Senate sessions, members of the lower house have 2 days to offer themselves up for election to Consul by posting manifestos setting out their objectives.
3) Senate members can propose motions that are binding setting out objectives for a Consuls reign. The Consul may ignore this motions at their peril (risk of censure/impeachment). All motions require a proposer and a seconder. Members whose avatars have one or more influence do not need a seconder.
4) There will then be a 1 day period of voting in which Senate members will vote on motions and, if it is an end-term session, for their preferred Consul. One member has one vote plus votes equal to half the influence of Senator’s avatars (rounded up; ghosts have zero influence)
5) The Senate may choose to reward Consuls by awarding them “Triumphs” or they may choose to censure them by Impeachment. Either vote requires a 2/3 majority of the Senate (influence weighted). Motions of thanks and censure require simple majorities.
(6) The Speaker can summon an emergency session of Senate at any time (ie a pause in play). The Senate is always open for deliberation (ie pontificating!) but only votes at a full session.
(7) The Senate can modify game rules by a 2/3 majority, except those deemed inviolable (and marked with an *).

Participant interactions.
1) Members may interact in public in the Senate deliberations thread or in private, via PMs.
2) Members may lobby Consuls for their avatars to be given some assignment (a governorship, time in an academy, field experience, be given a certain ancillary etc) and - heavens forbid - may even let some dealings influence their voting behaviour.
3) Members may not threaten or insult each other, except through public denunciations on the Senate floor. (ie let’s play nice).
4) Members of the lower house whose character takes part in a battle will be PMd by the Consul and asked to play out the battle. They will have 2 days to perform the task; otherwise it will be autoresolved.
5) Members whose avatars are governors will specify tax rates and construction build lists to the Consul at Senate sessions (training troops will be the Consul's responsibility). The Consul may deviate from those instructions (e.g. to balance the books) but will be accountable for such deviations.

The Senate speaker and other Senate posts

The campaign will be coordinated by one person, the Senate speaker (econ21). He will oversee all aspects of the campaign - assigning avatars, counting votes etc. The speaker will have the right to depose any incumbent player who does not provide a timely and satisfactory account of their progress (ie no running off with the savegame and derailing the campaign), but typically this should be done with the agreement of a majority of the Senate. econ21 will also act as a conventional participant in the game but keep this role strictly separate role from the Speaker role (e.g. his avatar is not the Speaker).

The Senate librarian (TinCow) will field miscellaneous queries from Upper House Senators about in-game information (e.g. what cities we hold, where is my avatar etc?) from savegames. In the first instance, Consuls should field such requests but in interregnums etc, the Librarian may help. Lower House Senators are expected to have the mod installed and so can consult savegames directly.

The Senate Fixer (DDW) will advise on technical issues around the RTR Platinum and Metropolis mod. He will keep the Senate up to date with the lastest patches and tweaks to the mods, helping us to maintain savegame compatibility while avoiding critical bugs and benefiting from essential updates.
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Historical armies: until the Marian reforms, the following rules should be adopted:
(1) There can be no more than one Roman unit per allied unit (generals excepted).
(2) Roman infantry must be deployed in the ratio:
2 hastati: 2 principes: 2 velites: 1 triarii
(use common sense where this exact ratio is not possible - e.g. 1 hastati, 2 principes is ok but 1 hastati, 2 triarii is not)
(3) No more than two ranged foot units (slinger or archer) per stack.
(4) No more than four cavalry units (excl. generals) per stack.

Typically, players should aim for two kinds of armies:

(a) Full stack Consular armies - 2 legions + 2 alae
2 hastati, 2 principes, 2 velites, 1 triarii, 1 funditore, 1 equites, 1 general
+ 10 assorted allies (one slot can be a second general, a tribune).

(b) Half stack Praetorian armies - 1 legion +1 alae
1 hastati, 1 principes, 1 velites, 1 general, and 1 of either triarii, equites or funditore
+5 allies

After the Marian reforms, half the stacks should still be allies (auxiliaries).
Roman units should be in the ratio: 1 first cohort: 3 legionnaires.

So a half stack army - a legion - could be:
1 First cohort; 3 legionnaires; 1 general + 5 auxiliaries

And a full stack army - two legions - could be:
2 first cohort; 6 legionnaires; 1 general; 1 artillery
+10 auxiliaries (one slot can be a second general, a tribune)

Equites should be disbanded and not recruited after the Marian reforms.

[Xiahou Liao]

Platinum sounds good...Romans sound good too. Anyone else?

[TinCow]

If it's long, has complex rules, is hard and involves playing Romans you can count me in. I've got to do something between now and MTW2, don't I?

[Avicenna]

Oh you'll need complex rules. RTR Romans are too easy otherwise, even for the likes of myself.

[econ21]

OK, let's think about some houserules.

I think it goes without saying that this should be a "roleplaying" game - players will play "in character" and try to make some good stories. Charging at windmills and idiosyncratic personal goals are encouraged, so long as they do not make life too hard for other players (e.g. no disbanding all your armies).

Beyond that I propose that the theme of this game be "Conquest" ( ). We should aim to conquer all the factions that Rome actually did conquer and each player should dedicate their reign to targeting one of those factions.

Specifically, I propose:

(1) VH campaigns; M battles

(2) No retraining, except ships and full units (to get upgrades)

(3) No extermination

(4) Fleets can only transport on a 1:1 basis (e.g. one tireme: 1 unit)

(5) Historical armies - see below





Notes:

1. Target factions:
The game should last until the following factions are destroyed:
Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul, Spain, Numidia.
Other factions (Parthia, Germany, Armenia etc) could be targeted but don't have to be.

2. Historical armies: until the Marian reforms, the following rules should be adopted:
(1) There can be no more than one Roman unit per allied unit (generals excepted).
(2) Roman infantry must be deployed in the ratio:
2 hastati: 2 principes: 2 velites: 1 triarii
(use common sense where this exact ratio is not possible - e.g. 1 hastati, 2 principes is ok but 1 hastati, 2 triarii is not)
(3) No more than two ranged foot units (slinger or archer) per stack.
(4) No more than four cavalry units (excl. generals) per stack.

Typically, players should aim for two kinds of armies:

(a) Full stack Consular armies - 2 legions + 2 alae
2 hastati, 2 principes, 2 velites, 1 triarii, 1 funditore, 1 equites, 1 general
+ 10 assorted allies (one slot can be a second general, a tribune).

(b) Half stack Praetorian armies - 1 legion +1 alae
1 hastati, 1 principes, 1 velites, 1 general, and 1 of either triarii, equites or funditore
+5 allies

After the Marian reforms, half the stacks should still be allies (auxiliaries).
Roman units should be in the ratio: 1 first cohort: 3 legionnaires.

So a half stack army - a legion - could be:
1 First cohort; 3 legionnaires; 1 general + 5 auxiliaries

And a full stack army - two legions - could be:
2 first cohort; 6 legionnaires; 1 general; 1 artillery
+10 auxiliaries (one slot can be a second general, a tribune)

Equites should be disbanded and not recruited after the Marian reforms.

What do people think? Anyone dislike some of the above rules? Want to add more?




[EDIT: The following rules were proposed but have been withdrawn - see discussion in later posts.]

(6) On receiving the savegame, each player except the first must immediately make three announcements (a) their primary target faction; (b) their secondary target faction; (c) their most favoured ally.

(7) Each player will then play until their primary target faction is destroyed (success! ) or their leader dies (failure ). Players who start their turns with leaders aged over 55 can play on after their leader dies .

(8) Secondary target factions must be raided - the player must enter their territory and try to destroy their field armies, but must not take any of their cities.

(9) All other factions (rebels are not a faction) can only be defended against - their territory cannot be entered, except in hot pursuit of a repelled invading army.

(10) Most favoured allies must be given military support if attacked and at the end of each turn must be given any excess gold in the treasury above 50,000.

(11) The first player must play until South Italy, Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia are Roman, then retire.

[Mount Suribachi]

If it's long, has complex rules, is hard and involves playing Romans you can count me in.

BTW, isn't RTR 7.0 due soon? Thats what the RTR website said last time I checked - which was like 2 months ago

[TinCow]

Ok, the general problems I see with 7, 8 & 9 is that it will be practically impossible for anyone to elimiate any faction within the reign of one faction leader. RTR is designed to play slowly as it is, so we'd be essentially making rules that would make each player fail their goals. In addition, concentrating only on conquering the 'primary' target will create very strange and un-realistic borders. For instance, say one player takes on the Greeks, forcing him to expand into Ionia. This would bring Rome into conflict with the Selucids. If Selucia then became a major threat that had to be dealt with (primary enemy), we could find ourselves with an empire that stretched all the way to India, without ever having sent a single army north of the Alps. That just doesn't seem right.

Here's an idea though:
The Senate

We're playing in the Republic, right? No single man had total power during that time (ignoring Sulla, et. al.) so why should we? How about this... at the end of every player's turn, he/she must post a picture of the world (FOW on/off?) and a general description of the economy, military and enemy strengths/alliances. This can be VERY brief, it could be done in a few lines dashed out when the game is uploaded. The rest of us would then vote on objectives to be assigned to the next player. If the player achieves those objectives, they are 'successful' (forum equivalent of a triumph?) and if they do not, they have 'failed.'

The nice thing about this is that the requirements could be incredibly varied. It could be as simple as, "Conquer the Italian Peninsula." However it could also be something like, "Take provinces A, B, C & D. Build X building in city E. Obtain the maps of faction F. Build 2 fleets each with 2 decs, 4 tris, & 6 birs."

Now, this would require the non-players to check back in here regularly... so active commitment to the PBM would definitely be required. However, this would also provide some interesting interaction for the non-players as well.