The Will of the Senate - out of character thread

[Xiahou Liao]

I was thinking of doing one of these again. I missed the Spanish one. :( Job got in the way. I'm open to any of the Factions, just not the huge ones...like the Selecuids......you know. Open to suggestions.

[econ21]

PBM campaign - “The Will of the Senate”

EDIT: THIS POST WILL NO LONGER BE MAINTAINED BUT HAS BEEN COPIED TO THE FAQ THREAD

Briefly, what it is all about:

:This will be a PBM where the entire body of participants contributes to the on-going campaign, whether playing the current 'round' or not. We will all be members of the 'Senate' and will generally decide what will happen through debate and voting on the forums. There will always be a single 'Consul', elected by majority vote in the Senate, who will be responsible for playing the actual game itself. He will serve for a 5 year term (20 game turns, using the 4 turns per year mod) and his actions will be reported back to the Senate regularly.

Each Senator will represent an actual Roman family member present in the game. You will know your traits, family connections, etc. All battles will be auto-calc UNLESS the general of the army is the current Consul. In addition, if a Senator's in-game family member is involved in a battle, the Consul will pass off the save game to that Senator for that single battle. Essentially, you will control everything involving the family member that represents YOU in the game. Using politics you can negotiate with other Senators and with the Consuls to get postings to the best cities with the best academies, to be assigned leadership of legions or even to be the next Consul yourself. Alternatively, you can sit back and simply aggitate as a member of the Senate... passing legislation (requirements that the Consul must try and fulfill) and otherwise politicing as you please without needing to play any turns. When your character dies, you will be assigned a new one when one becomes available (probably instantly).

We're still working out the finer points, but that's the gist of it. Oh, and it will be played using the Rome: Total Realism mod and some other sub-mods.

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The Play Order

The list of participants will now be maintained in the first post of the Senate deliberations thread.

People may join the campaign at any time, although the order in which people first post in this thread will be their "seniority" in the campaign and affect the assignment of faction members to be their "avatars". Priority in assigning avatars will go to lower house members, with seniority being a tie breaker. Ultimately as the Republic grows, we should have 30+ faction members, so every one - Upper and Lower House - should have an-game representation.

Anyone who joins the Lower House of the Senate is confirming:
(a) you have successfully installed RTR Platinum and the Metropolis mod for it.
(b) you could fight a battle at 2 days notice if your avatar gets into a scrap.

Anyone who joins the Upper House is confirming they will be an active member of the Senate, voting on elections and motions etc.

Remember, you can always freely switch between houses, but avatars may be re-assigned in order to give priority to lower house members. We don't want to autoresolve battles involving faction members.


=========================================================================
THE NITTY GRITTY

CURRENT RULES:

Game version - We are playing the Metropolis and Naval mod for Rome Total Realism Platinum Edition.
Follow these steps to install the mod:

(1) Start with vanilla RTW patched to 1.5 (1.6 if you have BI); note the 1.5 patch requires installing 1.3 first.
It is recommend that you use windows explorer to copy your RTW directory and everything in it.
Then rename the coped folder "RTR-Platinum" or something and mod this folder, leaving your vanilla RTW in tact.

(2) Install RTR Platinum Edition 1.5.
Currently, this involves two stages: installing the 1.0 Full release (aka 1.4 beta):
http://www.rometotalrealism.org/files/RTR_Platinum.exe
And patching it to 1.5 using the update:
http://www.beaglepc.net/rome/downloa...v1.5_Patch.exe

(4) Install the Metropolis and Naval mod for Platinum
This is explained in:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20000
Current version is 1.4; updated 2 June.

(5) Install the parthia/bactria landblock + africa landblock, and fix for a few map problems etc:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20850

(6) Delete map.rwm from
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\base
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\campaign\base
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign

CRITICAL WARNING FOR ALL PLAYERS !!!
As you load the game, wait for the advisor to pop up (you do not need to have advice on, it will show up anyway). Click on the show-me-how button to activate the mod. If you forget to do this, you will probably mess up the savegame and at the very least mess up the scripting for four turns per year and Roman leadership. Now you can start playing. You need to do this EVERY TIME you load or start a game.

Settings:
VH campaigns; M battles
Large unit size
Timer on
Fog of war on

Player rules:
*1) No retraining, except ships and full units (to get upgrades). Mercenaries can be merged with AOR units.
2) No extermination (except Carthage).
*3) Fleets can only transport on a 1:1 basis (e.g. one tireme: 1 unit)
4) Historical armies - see below
5) No army may leave Roman territory unless it has a General in command.
6) All battles with captains are autoresolved. Non-siege battle reinforcements led by captains should be placed under AI control.
7) Battles with faction members can be fought manually if the avatar is controlled by a member of the Lower House who plays out the battle within 2 days, otherwise they are autoresolved.
9) Regular reports should provided to Senate. The Consul must post every two days - it could be just a holding message ("Spending time attending to various work duties"), rather than a full report. The purpose is to avoid savegames disappearing for weeks (and encourage interaction with the Senate).
10) Players should post mid-term (after 10 turns) and end-term (after 20 turn) reports in the First Consul reports thread. This will be in character, but include a screenshot of the map, the savegame and a description of the key facts (allies, enemies etc). Players deceiving the Senate are unlikely to garner many votes. Players providing colourful write-ups may be rewarded.
*11) Declarations of war, alliances, ceasefires and relocation of the capital require a Senate vote.
*12) The player must inform the Senate Speaker asap of new faction members when they are spawned (including infants), so that they may be assigned to participants. Please give full details - name, date and season of spawn, relation to family tree, age, location, stats, traits, ancillaries, everything.
13) The game will end when the following factions are destroyed: Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul, Numidia.
14) Players are encouraged to read Quintus’ guide to being a true Roman for inspiration - e.g. on how to assign faction members by age to armies and provinces.
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=12035

Ancillaries
(1) Ancillaries normally should not be swapped without the consent of the participants controlling the avatars with the following exceptions.
(2) Chirurgeons and turncoats can be freely assigned by First Consuls.
(3) Priests can be removed from a character if that character is to stay in a settlement with the relevant temple.
(4) Characters who have 6 ancillaries, can have one ancillary transfered to another character (in order to allow the spawing of other ancillaries).
(5) The special ancillaries created by Marcus Camillus - the legion, field and Consular army traits, the quaestor of Roma trait - can be transferred by the First Consul but only to characters qualified - or about to qualify - for them and who are staced with suitably sized armies. eg legios => ex-Tribunes with 10 years experience etc.

Participants, Consuls and avatars
1) The player with the savegame is the (First) Consul and plays out a “reign” of 20 turns unless (a) their avatar dies; or (b) they resign the post (including resigning for premature re-election).
2) Participants must elect to join the upper or lower house of the Senate. Participants may switch between houses at any stage by notifying the Senate speaker.
3) Members of the lower house must be willing at some point to act as Consul (play the game) and ready to fight battles manually during the reign of another Consul within 48 hours of notification.
4) Members of the lower house will be assigned a faction member to act as their “avatar” in the game on a first come first served basis.
5) Members of the upper house are not expected to act as Consul or to fight battles. They will be assigned an avatar subject to availability.
6) Members currently without avatars will be “ghost” senators, with full rights.
7) Members whose avatars die will be assigned new avatars subject to the procedures outline above.
8) Members will be periodically informed of the traits and ancillaries of their avatars and will be expected to “role play” them. This will involve respecting bonds of family (e.g. sons should defer to fathers, unless they are “rotten kids”).
9) Dormant participants - who miss two or more Senate votes etc - may have their avatars reassigned.
10) Family members under 30 are restricted to the Uppper House unless there are exceptional circumstances (ie the Senate votes to waive the rule in a particular case). The reported arrival of King Pyrrhus in South Italy is one such circumstance, so it is likely Tiberius Coruncanius and Lucius Amelius will be assigned to the Lower House, by Speaker's perogative.
11) The future Princeps Senatus (Faction heir) will be elected by the Senate on the death of the Princeps Senatus. Future Princeps Senatus will not be disinherited except by a Senate vote in exceptional circumstances (impeachement etc).

Senate proceedings and election of First Consuls
1) A thread will be created devoted to Senate deliberations. All members can post - in character only - any deliberations or thoughts they have during the campaign. The Senate is always in session for debate.
2) Full Senate sessions - where votes are made - will occur in the 3 day interregnums between Consulates; in a mid-term session in the 3rd year of a Consulate; and in emergency sessions.
3) In end-term Senate sessions, members of the lower house have 2 days to offer themselves up for election to Consul by posting manifestos setting out their objectives.
3) Senate members can propose motions that are binding setting out objectives for a Consuls reign. The Consul may ignore this motions at their peril (risk of censure/impeachment). All motions require a proposer and a seconder. Members whose avatars have one or more influence do not need a seconder.
4) There will then be a 1 day period of voting in which Senate members will vote on motions and, if it is an end-term session, for their preferred Consul. One member has one vote plus votes equal to half the influence of Senator’s avatars (rounded up; ghosts have zero influence)
5) The Senate may choose to reward Consuls by awarding them “Triumphs” or they may choose to censure them by Impeachment. Either vote requires a 2/3 majority of the Senate (influence weighted). Motions of thanks and censure require simple majorities.
(6) The Speaker can summon an emergency session of Senate at any time (ie a pause in play). The Senate is always open for deliberation (ie pontificating!) but only votes at a full session.
(7) The Senate can modify game rules by a 2/3 majority, except those deemed inviolable (and marked with an *).

Participant interactions.
1) Members may interact in public in the Senate deliberations thread or in private, via PMs.
2) Members may lobby Consuls for their avatars to be given some assignment (a governorship, time in an academy, field experience, be given a certain ancillary etc) and - heavens forbid - may even let some dealings influence their voting behaviour.
3) Members may not threaten or insult each other, except through public denunciations on the Senate floor. (ie let’s play nice).
4) Members of the lower house whose character takes part in a battle will be PMd by the Consul and asked to play out the battle. They will have 2 days to perform the task; otherwise it will be autoresolved.
5) Members whose avatars are governors will specify tax rates and construction build lists to the Consul at Senate sessions (training troops will be the Consul's responsibility). The Consul may deviate from those instructions (e.g. to balance the books) but will be accountable for such deviations.

The Senate speaker and other Senate posts

The campaign will be coordinated by one person, the Senate speaker (econ21). He will oversee all aspects of the campaign - assigning avatars, counting votes etc. The speaker will have the right to depose any incumbent player who does not provide a timely and satisfactory account of their progress (ie no running off with the savegame and derailing the campaign), but typically this should be done with the agreement of a majority of the Senate. econ21 will also act as a conventional participant in the game but keep this role strictly separate role from the Speaker role (e.g. his avatar is not the Speaker).

The Senate librarian (TinCow) will field miscellaneous queries from Upper House Senators about in-game information (e.g. what cities we hold, where is my avatar etc?) from savegames. In the first instance, Consuls should field such requests but in interregnums etc, the Librarian may help. Lower House Senators are expected to have the mod installed and so can consult savegames directly.

The Senate Fixer (DDW) will advise on technical issues around the RTR Platinum and Metropolis mod. He will keep the Senate up to date with the lastest patches and tweaks to the mods, helping us to maintain savegame compatibility while avoiding critical bugs and benefiting from essential updates.
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Historical armies: until the Marian reforms, the following rules should be adopted:
(1) There can be no more than one Roman unit per allied unit (generals excepted).
(2) Roman infantry must be deployed in the ratio:
2 hastati: 2 principes: 2 velites: 1 triarii
(use common sense where this exact ratio is not possible - e.g. 1 hastati, 2 principes is ok but 1 hastati, 2 triarii is not)
(3) No more than two ranged foot units (slinger or archer) per stack.
(4) No more than four cavalry units (excl. generals) per stack.

Typically, players should aim for two kinds of armies:

(a) Full stack Consular armies - 2 legions + 2 alae
2 hastati, 2 principes, 2 velites, 1 triarii, 1 funditore, 1 equites, 1 general
+ 10 assorted allies (one slot can be a second general, a tribune).

(b) Half stack Praetorian armies - 1 legion +1 alae
1 hastati, 1 principes, 1 velites, 1 general, and 1 of either triarii, equites or funditore
+5 allies

After the Marian reforms, half the stacks should still be allies (auxiliaries).
Roman units should be in the ratio: 1 first cohort: 3 legionnaires.

So a half stack army - a legion - could be:
1 First cohort; 3 legionnaires; 1 general + 5 auxiliaries

And a full stack army - two legions - could be:
2 first cohort; 6 legionnaires; 1 general; 1 artillery
+10 auxiliaries (one slot can be a second general, a tribune)

Equites should be disbanded and not recruited after the Marian reforms.

[Xiahou Liao]

Platinum sounds good...Romans sound good too. Anyone else?

[TinCow]

If it's long, has complex rules, is hard and involves playing Romans you can count me in. I've got to do something between now and MTW2, don't I?

[Avicenna]

Oh you'll need complex rules. RTR Romans are too easy otherwise, even for the likes of myself.

[econ21]

OK, let's think about some houserules.

I think it goes without saying that this should be a "roleplaying" game - players will play "in character" and try to make some good stories. Charging at windmills and idiosyncratic personal goals are encouraged, so long as they do not make life too hard for other players (e.g. no disbanding all your armies).

Beyond that I propose that the theme of this game be "Conquest" ( ). We should aim to conquer all the factions that Rome actually did conquer and each player should dedicate their reign to targeting one of those factions.

Specifically, I propose:

(1) VH campaigns; M battles

(2) No retraining, except ships and full units (to get upgrades)

(3) No extermination

(4) Fleets can only transport on a 1:1 basis (e.g. one tireme: 1 unit)

(5) Historical armies - see below





Notes:

1. Target factions:
The game should last until the following factions are destroyed:
Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul, Spain, Numidia.
Other factions (Parthia, Germany, Armenia etc) could be targeted but don't have to be.

2. Historical armies: until the Marian reforms, the following rules should be adopted:
(1) There can be no more than one Roman unit per allied unit (generals excepted).
(2) Roman infantry must be deployed in the ratio:
2 hastati: 2 principes: 2 velites: 1 triarii
(use common sense where this exact ratio is not possible - e.g. 1 hastati, 2 principes is ok but 1 hastati, 2 triarii is not)
(3) No more than two ranged foot units (slinger or archer) per stack.
(4) No more than four cavalry units (excl. generals) per stack.

Typically, players should aim for two kinds of armies:

(a) Full stack Consular armies - 2 legions + 2 alae
2 hastati, 2 principes, 2 velites, 1 triarii, 1 funditore, 1 equites, 1 general
+ 10 assorted allies (one slot can be a second general, a tribune).

(b) Half stack Praetorian armies - 1 legion +1 alae
1 hastati, 1 principes, 1 velites, 1 general, and 1 of either triarii, equites or funditore
+5 allies

After the Marian reforms, half the stacks should still be allies (auxiliaries).
Roman units should be in the ratio: 1 first cohort: 3 legionnaires.

So a half stack army - a legion - could be:
1 First cohort; 3 legionnaires; 1 general + 5 auxiliaries

And a full stack army - two legions - could be:
2 first cohort; 6 legionnaires; 1 general; 1 artillery
+10 auxiliaries (one slot can be a second general, a tribune)

Equites should be disbanded and not recruited after the Marian reforms.

What do people think? Anyone dislike some of the above rules? Want to add more?




[EDIT: The following rules were proposed but have been withdrawn - see discussion in later posts.]

(6) On receiving the savegame, each player except the first must immediately make three announcements (a) their primary target faction; (b) their secondary target faction; (c) their most favoured ally.

(7) Each player will then play until their primary target faction is destroyed (success! ) or their leader dies (failure ). Players who start their turns with leaders aged over 55 can play on after their leader dies .

(8) Secondary target factions must be raided - the player must enter their territory and try to destroy their field armies, but must not take any of their cities.

(9) All other factions (rebels are not a faction) can only be defended against - their territory cannot be entered, except in hot pursuit of a repelled invading army.

(10) Most favoured allies must be given military support if attacked and at the end of each turn must be given any excess gold in the treasury above 50,000.

(11) The first player must play until South Italy, Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia are Roman, then retire.

[TinCow]

Whew... I love the army requirements and would like to suggest one more. No army should be allowed to leave Roman territory unless it has a General in command.

I've got issues with 6 - 10, but I've got to run off to work and can't get into it now.

[Avicenna]

Add Melite (not sure about the region's name) the city to the first player's objectives. It's just a small island south of Sicily.

Seleucia and Egypt seem to be quite ambitious targets for Rome, seeing how Egypt was claimed because of a marriage and the Seleucid Empire was not actually conquered by Rome, at least not all of it. Can the 'must be destroyed' factions be made protectorate instead?

Also, can mercenary units be merged with normal units? eg. the Italian cavalry. Or should the mercs be treated as separate?

[Mount Suribachi]

If it's long, has complex rules, is hard and involves playing Romans you can count me in.

BTW, isn't RTR 7.0 due soon? Thats what the RTR website said last time I checked - which was like 2 months ago

[TinCow]

Ok, the general problems I see with 7, 8 & 9 is that it will be practically impossible for anyone to elimiate any faction within the reign of one faction leader. RTR is designed to play slowly as it is, so we'd be essentially making rules that would make each player fail their goals. In addition, concentrating only on conquering the 'primary' target will create very strange and un-realistic borders. For instance, say one player takes on the Greeks, forcing him to expand into Ionia. This would bring Rome into conflict with the Selucids. If Selucia then became a major threat that had to be dealt with (primary enemy), we could find ourselves with an empire that stretched all the way to India, without ever having sent a single army north of the Alps. That just doesn't seem right.

Here's an idea though:
The Senate

We're playing in the Republic, right? No single man had total power during that time (ignoring Sulla, et. al.) so why should we? How about this... at the end of every player's turn, he/she must post a picture of the world (FOW on/off?) and a general description of the economy, military and enemy strengths/alliances. This can be VERY brief, it could be done in a few lines dashed out when the game is uploaded. The rest of us would then vote on objectives to be assigned to the next player. If the player achieves those objectives, they are 'successful' (forum equivalent of a triumph?) and if they do not, they have 'failed.'

The nice thing about this is that the requirements could be incredibly varied. It could be as simple as, "Conquer the Italian Peninsula." However it could also be something like, "Take provinces A, B, C & D. Build X building in city E. Obtain the maps of faction F. Build 2 fleets each with 2 decs, 4 tris, & 6 birs."

Now, this would require the non-players to check back in here regularly... so active commitment to the PBM would definitely be required. However, this would also provide some interesting interaction for the non-players as well.

[econ21]

The Senate idea is a very interesting one, TinCow. I like it a lot. Let's explore the mechanics of how it could work.

Here are some ideas - anyone feel free to propose alternatives:

1) The Senate will consist of all faction members in the game. Each participant in the PBM will choose one faction member to be their avatar (e.g. on a first come, first served basis). When their avatars die, participants can be reincarnated in another faction member. When new faction members come of age (or otherwise enter the game), a participant will be assigned to them. Participants may retire at any time, releasing their avatar for another participants. If participants go awol and persistently don't vote etc, their avatar may be assigned to someone else if there is a queue. Participants need not necessarily be players.

2) Players will be elected First Consul for 10 years (20 turns) or until their avatar dies (if sooner). For role-playing purposes, it is expected that players may seek immediate re-election and may even try to reign continuously until they die (ie be dictator for life). However, this will require winning Senate votes every 10 years.

3) Senate members may lobby First Consuls for their avatars to be given some assignment (a governorship, time in an academy, field experience, be given a certain ancillary etc) and - heavens forbid - may even let some dealings influence their voting behaviour. Senate members should try to role-play their avatars - e.g. one who hates smelly barbarians should not propose allying with them. Incumbent players should keep Senate members abreast of any new vices and virtues they acquire. Family relations between avatars should also be respected - sons should usually defer to fathers etc, unless role-playing rotten kids.

4) When a Consulate ends, the incumbent player shall post an end of reign report to the Senate. This will be in character, but include a screenshot of the map, the savegame and a description of the key facts (allies, enemies etc). Players deceiving the Senate are unlikely to garner many votes.

5) On receiving an end of Consulate report, the Senate will be in session for 7 days. During the first 4 days, prospective players - including the incumbent if he/she desires - will campaign for office and submit manifestoes proposing objectives for their prospective Consulships. Senate members may recommend objectives, but it will up to prospective players to include such recommendations in their manifestoes (which can be revised at any time until the end of the fourth day).

6) At the end of the fourth day, the speaker of the Senate will confirm the list of candidates and the Senate will then have three days to vote on which should be the next player. The speaker will collate the votes cast and announce the result.

7) The campaign will be coordinated by one person (the Senate speaker). He/she will be immortal and will oversee all aspects of the campaign - assigning avatars, counting votes etc. The speaker will have the right to depose any incumbent player who does provide a timely and satisfactory account of their progress (ie no running off with the savegame and derailing the campaign), but typically this should be done with the agreement of a majority of the Senate. The person acting as speaker will also act in a seperate role as a conventional participant with an avatar, the possibility of reigns etc (and be strictly impartial in the speaker role). I'm happy to do this, although other volunteers such as Xiahou Liao or TinCow are welcome.


What do you think? I am trying to get something concrete that allows players to set the agenda for their reigns but also gives the Senate the ultimate power to decide Rome's fate. It will only work if there are enough participants to make it lively, but the fact that participants don't actually have to do anything may mean we can attract PBMers who may not have the time to play a reign at the moment.


If people like this idea, we may change the way we do write-ups. It might be better to have real time "letters from the field" or other propaganda to document a reign, rather than wait for long conventional write-ups. Similarly, Senate members may want to agitate during a Consuls reign, by commenting in character on events, making demands, denunciations or even paeans. I'm thinking of having a "Senate proceedings" thread for all in-character stuff (only).

[TinCow]

I like all of that, though I would like to give some sort of power to the Senate to end a Consul's reign if he is particularly irksome to the rest. Perhaps something like 3/4 vote to 'impeach'. This would allow some force behind Senate votes to do this or that during a campaign. Ignore the body too often and you'll be done... unless of course you assume full dictatorship by refusing to upload a save game. :P

As for the running commentaries from both Consul and Senate, that would be great... but it would require the Consul to play relatively slowly. If someone zipped through and did their reign in two play sessions (like I tend to do) there would be no room for any dialog and developments. We could respond to this by asking people to play no more than 5 turns every day or something, but how long do we want this to go for? Can we keep people interested and active for that long?

While I find these ideas incredibly interesting from a role-playing perspective, I'm very concerned that this will require too much dedication to work properly. There's no point in doing a Senate like this unless we have at least a half dozen people who are willing to regularly post and role-play. Given the lackluster responses most PBMs get, I'm not sure if this is possible. Maybe we should be advertising in some of the more frequented forums.

[Avicenna]

I'd participate in the voting, but I have no time or the writing skills to do the PBM. Just have a vote once a decade, as econ suggested.

Also, wouldn't it be a bit difficult for a non-player to role-play their character? The traits change so often it's hard to keep up.

[econ21]

OK, I agree a running commentary from the Senate is not very feasible. Let's assume their involvement will largely come during the Senate sessions - their traits will also only be updated then. (I'm thinking of making trading ancillaries against the rules, except by the mutual consent. I was even wondering about weighting votes by influence). I agree personally I tend like to blitz through my reign in a week (or weekend) rather than pace myself.

It's true that to make this interesting we will need around six active people. But we've got at least 3 already - me, TinCow and Tiberius. IIRC, we only start with 4 Roman faction members in RTR anyway. Perhaps we can have some "ghost" Senate members - ie who have not been assigned avatars yet. I think some weeding out of sleeping Senate members will be required - let's say miss two votes and your avatar is reassigned (if there are some active ghosts without avatars). The limit on participants will steadily grow up to 40+, but we might be able to fill that by involving some Org stalwarts (e.g. staff) who like Tiberius may not actually want to play out a reign[1]. We could advertise more widely - even in the RTR website - but right now I'd like to get a hardcore of PBM veterans interested to see if we have critical mass.

An impeachment rule is ok, but I was thinking of a more cooperative model for participant interactions. Maybe that kind of thing might come in to play if we manage to attract a large number of active participants. If it is just a handful of us, we may not want to go at each other's throats.

I am wondering if I should start a new thread - with a different title ("The Senate needs YOU" or something) - to see if we can involve more PMers. Are we happy enough to go public?

[1]EDIT: Although, I am thinking that this PBM may involve much less writing than previous ones - incumbents only need produce a manifesto and a report. So the burden of writing need not put you off playing a reign, Tiberius.

[Dutch_guy]

I am wondering if I should start a new thread - with a different title ("The Senate needs YOU" or something) - to see if we can involve more PBMers. Are we happy enough to go public?

Well I'm sure there are a lot of people who'd love to play, and like the idea, so I don't see what's wrong with a little advertisement.

I bet loads of members don't even know the throne room exists.

As for the whole senate Idea, I like it. I'd be happy to participate even though time at the moment is scarce...

Meaning...

It will only work if there are enough participants to make it lively, but the fact that participants don't actually have to do anything may mean we can attract PBMers who may not have the time to play a reign at the moment.

...would be good for me.

[Mount Suribachi]

I think this PBEM has excellent potential! Count me in, though only as a back bencher until I get my WRE write-up done! Definately publicise it, and I believe their is a PBEM community on the .com, it may be worth asking them along.

If I may offer several points

Rules 6,7,8 as suggested by Simon now seem a little bit superfluous, not to say confusing. Now that we will have a Senate dictating the Consuls actions, I think the need to declare your enemies/objectives has been superceded. However, a candidate for the Consulship may declare his intentions to make war upon a particular faction as part of his election campaign.

I nominate Simon as the Speaker - he effectively operates that role in the Throne Room anyway

I also think that as a way to keep the campaign ticking along, and to increase realism, all battles should be auto-resolved unless the player (Consul)himself is the general on the battlefield. By doing this we may lose a few more battles than we would normally, but it could also precipitate crises that would require Senate intervention and the dispatch of a PBEMer led army to deal with it. This also raises the possibility of having a PBEMer who isn't currently Consul being sent a save game by the Consul in order to fight just one battle, before returning the save. Thus players who may not have the time to do a full reign can still actively participate in the full game. MSN might be useful for co-ordinating activity like this, maybe even Senate sessions?

Finally, an addition to the army make-up rules. No family members under 30 to be Generals or Governors. Under the Cursus Honorum this very rarely happened. Instead, send 19 year olds out to serve as Legates in an army in the field led by a family member.

[econ21]

OK, I've posted a call for players at the RTR Platinum forum:

http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20179

Hopefully we'll get some interest. I'll make similar calls in the Org in due course.


[EDIT]: Some very interesting ideas, there, Mount

I think rules 6+ have been overtaken by events, so I've edited the relevant post to make that clear.

Autoresolving is a biggie. I've never done it but I'm interested in what other people think. The idea of involving non-incumbents in fighting particular battles sounds fun, but may slow things down. I'm thinking of dividing the Senate into two houses - lower (like your frontbench), where members want to play out turns and upper (like your backbench) where there is no such implied commitment[1]. We probably should prioritise avatars for members of the lower House and so expecting them to fight out ad hoc battles would not be unreasonable. If they forfeit - e.g. don't respond to the call to battle within two days and so the battle is autoresolved - the Senate may look unfavorably on a future candidature for the First Consul.

On the age thing, I have similar restrictions in my own games. I like the "true Roman" guidelines on the RTR tips and strategies sub-forum - teenage youngsters first stay at an academy, then sometime in their 20s become military tribunes (2nd general in a stack) etc. But I am not inflexible, as I can't help thinking of outstanding generals and Kings - not Roman, I admit - who were ridiculously young. So if we have an ambitious young thing with lots of command stars and we were in a desperate situation, I might let him have a command. I'd be tempted to make it a guideline, rather than a hard and fast rule (maybe the Senate might have to authorise violations of the rule? perhaps ex post).

Not sure about MSN - I don't use it and would rather try to use this forum - and PMs - to try to build up a collegiate spirit here.

On reflection, I like your proposals but let's get other views.

[1]Participants would be able to switch between upper and lower Houses of the Senate at any time.

[Mount Suribachi]

When you talk about sorting out Avatars do you mean we will actually have our avatars on the Org changed to reflect the avatar of our in-game character? Cool I also suggest that to help each other out we also alter our custom member titles to the name of our in-game character.

I think you are correct to not be totally rigid regarding the Cursus Honorum. IIRC Pompey Magnus was only 19 when he got his first command and Scipio Africanus was also quite young (under 30) when he was given command to fight against Carthage, but like you said, exceptional individuals in exceptional circumstances (civil war and imminent annihilation). And I'm sure we can create ourselves a Boni faction, spouting off about the Mos Maorium and such

*trots off to read "True Roman" guidelines *

[econ21]

By "avatar", I was just using the term in the role-playing sense to refer to the faction member in the game that represents the participant. (I still feel I need a shower after being Shodan's avatar in System Shock 2... ) It would be nice if all or most Senate members had an in-game representation. But adopting appropriate Org graphical avatars and custom names sounds neat.

The "true Roman" guidelines are at:

http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=12035

They give lots of good ideas and information.

[TinCow]

This is sounding very promising. Autocalc for all battles not supervised by the playing Consul himself makes a lot of sense and would vastly increase the interaction. This would definitely be a much slower progressing game, but I think it could be very interesting. It would also be relatively undemanding for most people, just checking the forums regularly (which I do anyway) and responding.

We don't even have to 'win' in any real sense. Just playing it like this would be the interesting point. Politics, battles, back-stabbing maybe... that would be the goal in and of itself. Are there any mods out there that increase the number of turns per game year? The slower this went, the longer people would get to play their specific avatars.

edit:
After reading those guidelines, not only do I think a lot of them are perfect for us, but I think that the RTR forums may be the perfect place to recruit. Anyone who likes that kind of play style may also like our interactive version of it.

[econ21]

Good point, TinCow - there are "four turns per year mods" (FTPY):

http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...showtopic=8656

Currently, one possibility is the "FTPY mod for Platinum". I'd like to use a Platinum mod so we can use 1.5 RTW as I am getting sick of fighting rebels in 1.2 and also IIRC there are some bugs (save/reload? charge bonus?) etc.

I've tried to recruit on the RTR Platinum sub-forum - feel free to make your own announcements in other forum. In response, LestaT said he would join if we used his Imperator II mod. This includes the FTPY mod and is designed for Romans specifically, so I think it is ideal for us. But it is still a beta and we can't have CTDs messing up our PBM. We should check on the status of the mod when we are about to start.

FTPY is also incorporated in other mods which we should investigate (and maybe try out).

I am quite keen to start this going quite soon - maybe next weekend? But I'd like some more old-time PBMers (and newcomers!) to sign up here first.

[TinCow]

I played an old version of RTR and enjoyed it but I'm largely out of the loop when it comes to RTW modding. As such, I'll go with whatever mods and config edits everyone else agrees with. The complexity of installing mods and such is not an issue for me. I'll do whatever is decided.

I may actually download RTR Platinum this afternoon to see what has changed since last I played.

Edit:

Urrr... I'm only seeing RTR 6 Gold. Where is Platinum?

[econ21]

Urrr... I'm only seeing RTR 6 Gold. Where is Platinum?

The download link is in my post #2 above.

And for future reference (inc. mine!) the 4TPY mod for Platinum is at:

http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...0&#entry251110

[TinCow]

Thanks, I have made a fresh install and will be using Platinum and the 4TPY and Metropolis mods for it (and the extra music). I'll check it out later tonight. Gotta make a run to the wine store first though; you can't properly celebrate the slaughter of stinking Gauls unless you're sipping from a nice bottle!

[econ21]

Nevermind - see post #2

[Mount Suribachi]

This is sounding more and more excellent. I really hope we can get a few folks together for this one. I wonder if the folks in the chapter house would be interested? Its the kind of thing that's right up their street.

And I like the idea of using Influence as a weighting factor, nice way to represent the clients of a Roman patrician

Also like the 4 turns per year thing, makes for a more realistic game in a couple of ways. First, it allows for a "campaigning season" style of play where you stick all your troops in a fort for the winter. Secondly, a consul's reign is only 5 years that way - I know historically they only had 1, but special commands, such as Julius Caeser in Gaul could be up to 5 years.

*drums fingers whilst waiting for RTRPE to download*

[Avicenna]

Pleease allow the extermination of Carthage as a single exception. Pretty please?

Also, thanks for the recommendation that I play econ, but I'm at a boarding school, so I can't play RTW. The upload website is blocked anyway. I can't actually get onto totalwar.org, but luckily the forum isn't blocked

By the way, don't elect Quintus as a consul. He's just some randomer. When the RTR campaign starts, Decius Laevinius and Tiberius Coruncianus were the historical consuls. I recommend that both stay in a city, and they'll soon develop into characters with incredibly high influence and management. Laevinius should take Paestum and then settle, Coruncianus should have the city east of Roma (forgot the name) until he overtakes the other character (Amulius?) in management. Remember not to make taxes on VH all the time though, as it makes the governors stingy and hence squalor increasing.

[econ21]

OK, Tiberius - I'd be happy to have you in the Upper House. But who knows, the campaign may keep going until one of your vacations and you could pick up a reign?

Mount - thanks for reminding me about the parallel with the interactive histories. I've put a call for players in both the Chapter House and the Colosseum. Hopefully, we'll have some new players come over.

I'm starting to wonder if we could make more of TinCow's original idea of Senate missions. Maybe during the interregnum's, the Senate could propose and vote on motions ("Carthage must be destroyed") quite independent of the manifestoes. First Consuls could ignore the Senate missions at their own peril (or could incorporate them into their manifestoes).

[TinCow]

Before we launch this, we should provide direct links to every file that will be needed and specific instructions on what to install first and any extra editing that will be required. It looks like we'll be using a lot of mods and we'll want to minimize any technical problems.

Will we be using the Metropolis mod or some other mod that removes most city walls? Siege: Total Realism is a bit of a pain. Also, it would probably make Senators whose avatars govern un-walled frontier cities aggitate for a stronger city garrison and such.

I'm really liking the idea of handing off the save game to a specific Senator for a single battle if that Senator's avatar is attacked in-game. It will definitely slow this thing down, but I think it will make it much more interactive and highly amusing to boot.

As far as the 'missions' go, we could do something like a mandatory legislative period at the beginning of each consulship. After the save has been uploaded (allowing everyone who wants to to see the state of the world in detail) we could require a one week (or longer) debate period before the next Consul can play. During that time period, the Senate can propose objectives for the next Consulship. Each proposal can be voted on by the group and all that are accepted will be included in the final list. Individual Senators could gain assests for their own benefit (e.g. new academy building in the city they govern, stronger garrison) by refusing to vote for an objective that is borderline unless the others agree to 'fund' the side-project. Essentially... politics. :D Voting blocs could work well here and might result in the rise of a 'party' system.

Also, even though there are only 4 'of age' family members at the start of the game, there are 3-4 underage ones as well. We could instantly assign these to Senators so that they would know what their name and family relation would be from the start, rather than being nameless participants. As soon as they turned 16, they could be placed in a proper position befitting their situation.

The more I think about this, I'm beginning to think that we won't really need a write-up of any kind at all. Regular posting by the current Consul about the world would be more than enough. He could even upload the save several times during his Consulship to allow everyone else to see the status without having to go into crazy details. If enough people post regularly in "The Senate" (thread) and stay in-character, that should be all the write-up we need.

[econ21]

On the issue of mods, the constraint seems to be that we can have one other mod with Platinum - either 4TPY or Metropolis or Imperator II. We can't combine more than one (although Imperator II includes 4TPY).

If we went for RTR Gold, we could have the combined Imperator+Metropolis mod:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=16953
This would give us (a) tighter economy & more threats for Romans; (b) fewer walls; (c) 4TPY. ie everything we want. I've tried it and it is good. But there is the downside - it is for RTW 1.2 - ie uncontrollable rebel spawn and save/reload bug etc.

Personally, I'd vote we go for RTR God + Imperator + Metropolis, as the Platinum mods and Platinum itself seem to be more works in progress (e.g. people seem to be constantly tweaking the unit stats etc), whereas we know Gold etc has no CTDs and will not be revised anymore. But if other players prefer the 1.5 TW engine, I'd understand (I've played so much RTR and EB, 1.2 does not bother me).

It would be good if we could agree on the mod in the next few days, as it might influence whether people want to join in.

On the missions, I agree - I am inclining more to a missions than a manifesto approach, although there's no reason we can't have both. I am wondering if we should have more regular Senate meetings. Say a mid-term? So Consuls play 5 years (4TPY) and sometime in the 3rd year must report back and submit to Senate missions (and possible impeachment). And give more chances for Senators to lobby for favours.

I agree about assigning the under-age and the write-ups, although maybe Consuls may want to write dramatic (and self-aggrandising) battle reports to win favour with the Senate.