The Will of the Senate - out of character thread

[econ21]

Is a sub-forum a possibility?

Given that I now have moderator powers here, I don't think a sub-forum will be necessary. We now have four "permanent" threads for this PBM: - two interactive ones - this one and the Senate deliberations thread; and two "reference" ones - the Senate library and the First Consul reports. I don't think this is too much, given that the forum page is not even full when displayed with the default "show posts made in the last 2 weeks".

I am going to create two temporary poll threads for voting - one for the first First Consul; one for all motions submitted this session. No one need post in them - just choose your polls options. After Friday, the threads will be irrelevant. As we have more and more sessions, to avoid such temporary threads cluttering up the forum, I will "age" them, so they slip off the front page.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

It is rather awkward to have step (5) after (3) and (4), as it means that those of us who have already installed the Metro&Naval mod have to unpick this step. However, this is only really an immediate issue for the First Consul.

I'm not clear why (5) comes after (4) - does Metro&Naval mod not have its own EDU?

If DDW confirms Marcus's information, I will put it and the links on post#2 of this thread.

I looked into it last night, and will make a definite post late this evening, a bit early due to popular demand. I suspect the order of 3-5 is not relevant and can be modified and 3 and 4 be done at a later time. Nevertheless, I advise everyone to keep backups of a Vanilla RTW 1.5 edition and the mods. I will look into this later, but I'm at work at the moment :)

[Avicenna]

Out of Character post:

I propose having an EB Romani campaign just like this when the full version is released.

Who's with me?

[econ21]

I propose having an EB Romani campaign just like this when the full version is released.

Who's with me?

Absolutely! EB is my favorite mod, but I have held off starting a PBM with it because it is still terribly unstable on my computer - it crashes so often, I've stopped playing it. If the port to 1.5 fixes that problem, then it would make a great PBM. I'd be inclined to let this campaign play out first, though, so we could learn lessons and not dissipate people's energies.

All that said though, I've been impressed with what I have seen of this mod. As TinCow noted, the scripting of Roman leadership traits by Marcus Camillus is lovely for role-playing. Also, just loading it up and fighting a battle, I noticed that the Roman rank and file infantry in RTR are much prettier than their Camillan equivalents in EB (this is not a comment on the modders abilities, just on the actual uniforms of the troops).

[Tricky Lady]

Wow. I'm offline for, what, 24 hours, and look at the discussions I've missed! I just spent half an hour reading the two main threads.

Anyway...

If this were MTW or M2TW then Princesses would be suitable avatars for the Upper House. But one problem with Rome is that the daughter does not have a representation on the map. Tricky_Lady may prefer a conventional Senator, as then he will have more to do e.g. be a governor. But if she wants a daughter, I am happy to oblige. If so, she should have a veto over suitors. I might even let her control the husband - some wives do that

As you mentioned HBO's Rome series, it would be great if I could play a "Servilia" or "Atia" who's controlling a puppet senator. So I'd get a female avatar (just the standard "wife" avatar will do for me, it's not that important), but it will be linked to a male senator, who will speak for me. Lol, sounds like fun.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Out of Character post:

I propose having an EB Romani campaign just like this when the full version is released.

Who's with me?

Tempting, but EB still needs a lot of work, amazing as it is already.

[Avicenna]

Of course, you could always go one step further, and be one of those little aliens in a robot in the form of a human, like in MIB. Or would that be going too far?

DDW: that's why I said after it's finished

[Mount Suribachi]

Out of Character post:

I propose having an EB Romani campaign just like this when the full version is released.

Who's with me?

Aye Carumba! Give us chance man, we've not even started this one yet! Hopefully the fact that everyone continues to have an input will enable this PBEM to maintain its momentum into the late game.

I've played a few turns of the mod, and have been impressed by the professionalism of it. Fought a battle and after playing vanilla RTW for 6 months it....seemed.....so.....slow I'm there drumming my fingers whilst waiting for surrounded hoplites to die. Guess I'll have to get used to no more insta-routs

[Avicenna]

I'm planning to do this over the summer holidays, when I actually have time. No problem with planning ahead though, is there?

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I've played a few turns of the mod, and have been impressed by the professionalism of it. Fought a battle and after playing vanilla RTW for 6 months it....seemed.....so.....slow I'm there drumming my fingers whilst waiting for surrounded hoplites to die. Guess I'll have to get used to no more insta-routs

There is a problem with morale being way too high for everyone. The last minute fixes I will explain later on reduce moral for everyone by 25 % and give a more realistic battle. Still, hoplites are not know for giving in quickly, we're not talking gaul swordsmen here :)

[Avicenna]

Personally I don't find the morale too high, in fact the RTR is more enjoyable, getting to kill more without actually having to have masses of light cav for chasing purposes.

Anyway, if two pila volleys can rout a unit, it's not actually that much higher morale-wise.

[econ21]

Tricky_Lady: ok, I will assign you Marcella, who is 18. I am not sure how she is related to the rest of the family tree, as - like Quintus - she has no family name.

She will pretty quickly get an offer of marriage and the family member she weds can be your avatar by proxy. On reflection, I think giving you right of refusal may slow things down too much, so this will have to be an arranged marriage. However, you can let the First Consul know the desirable attributes you will look for in a match and what things you would like to veto - ie age, stats, traits etc.

Mount: morale is about the only quibble I have with RTR. IIRC a unit of hastati has a morale of about 6 in RTW, 13 in EB and 24 in RTR Gold. Shos's EDU file I posted earlier cuts it down to 18 or so, 25% as DDW said. I think the implication is that breaking the enemy's morale is even more important - try to go for the flanks, prepare the ground with missiles, threaten with cavalry etc. Total War has lots of pretty big morale modifiers hidden under the engine - you need to bring them into play. Just fight a frontal stand-up battle and the enemy can often fight to almost the last man - taking a lot of yours with them. Given that we have a no retraining rule, a couple of big battles can wreck your army (we'll need a fairly constant chain of replacements to top up depleted units regardless).

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

As promised, here are the final instructions. This has been tested by me and seems to work fine.

For the people that have already installed metronaval mod (step 4) :
After reviewing the files I'd say it is possible to do step 3 after step 5, but then I would like someone who does that to send me the final resulting files that are included in 3. So what you end up with after step 7. Then I can compare them with what I have and see if everything is correct, and otherwise send you the correct files. If this is unclear let me know and I'll go into excruciating detail.

Step 3 : the Corrected_RTR_Platinum_Files are just what they say.
Step 5 : The update of the metronaval mod includes Marcus his 4PTY mod 1.9.1. which is especially compatible with metonaval mod.
Step 6 : Shos latest EDU for RTRPE with Metro&Naval Mod contains various essential fixes.
Step 7 : It fix solves the problem that the ptolemaic empire gets wasted by Carthage while its fighting the Seleucids. No more crossing the endless desert of Libya.
There are more fixes and tweaks, but none I considered absolutely vital. This seems like the best setup as of 24/05/2006 00:56. I do not own BI and so this has only been tested for RTW1.5 !

RTR Platinum Edition install instructions
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=19705

1. Prior to installing Rome Total Realism Platinum, you will need a fresh install of Vanilla RTW(v1.0).
Download and patch RTW to the following patch versions, in the order listed.
a. RTW v1.2 patch (this is probably unnecessary, but do it anyway)
b. RTW v1.3 patch
c. RTW v1.5 patch

! Test if it still works, and if so make a backup !
! And for the sake of the gods save all your mod files so you can recreate this install later !

2. Download the full installer v1.0 and install it to your fresh RTW directory.
RTR Platinum Edition 1.0 (=BETA 1.4)
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=19682

Included in this mod are :
Darth Vader (DarthFormations: added to patch_v0.3.rar)
Archer (SkyMod: included in beta 1.0)
SignifierOne (Animations pack v0.8, without which it would have taken much longer to make this)

3. Install the Corrected_RTR_Platinum_Files_v2.0.zip
Files belong in \Data
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...c=18768&st=120

4. Install METROPOLIS & NAVALMOD by Snake_IV
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...pic=20000&st=0

5. Install Update1 for METROPOLIS & NAVALMOD by Snake_IV
Unzip these files and add them MANUALLY in \Data
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...pic=20000&st=0

6. Shos latest EDU for RTRPE with Metro&Naval Mod
Install this in \Data
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...c=18768&st=120

7. parthia/bactria landblock + africa landblock
Install this in \Data\world\maps\base
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...c=18768&st=140

8. Delete map.rwm from
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\base
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\campaign\base
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign

CRITICAL WARNING FOR ALL PLAYERS !!!
As you load the game, wait for the advisor to pop up (you do not need to have advice on, it will show up anyway). Click on the show-me-how button to activate the 4TPY mod. If you forget to do this, you will probably mess up the savegame and at the very least mess up the 4PTY mod. Now you can start playing. You need to do this EVERY TIME you load or start a game.

9. Now get out there and kick some ass !

I've earned a beer, me thinks...

[TinCow]

With regards to Tricky Lady, how should I represent her in the Biography? Clearly we cannot assign her future husband to another player and her 'influence' will be via manipulating the man. As such, would it be appropriate for me to simply include the husband's biography with an additional note that gossip in Rome indicates that it is really Marcella who wears the... toga... in the family?

[econ21]

Yes, unless she indicates otherwise, I would present Tricky_Lady's soon-to-be husband and Senator as the public face of her character, but note the rumours.

On other business, now that some of us have avatars assigned, I think it would be good if we could use their Roman names in deliberations in the senate, e.g. "Quintus (econ21)" for clarity. There was also the idea of changing user titles to have your PBM avatar's name, so people can remember who you are roleplaying - I will put Quintus in quotation marks as my user title. If you can find your avatars picture, you can use that too although you don't have to - I won't as Org convention dictates mods keep their robes.

[Ignoramus]

I can't find Sextus Antio's avatar.

[Avicenna]

It should be under Roman_Dips.

econ, don't you mean rags?

[Ignoramus]

I've looked, but strangely Roman_Dips is not there.

[econ21]

I've looked, but strangely Roman_Dips is not there.

It's there - go to "show avatars", press the rightside arrow and RTW_Roman_Dip is one screne you can select.

I think you want: Roman Diplomat000

[Ignoramus]

Ach, I need 600 posts.

[Avicenna]

Start visiting the Entrance Hall and Frontroom. Also post in the forum games. Rome must have a civilised diplomat!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I must have been having premonitions by sorting out all the technical stuff yesterday, as today I will not be home before midnight due to overwork. Luckily I have tomorrow off and then I will continue my political campaign with a vengeance :)
It's not possible to upload an avatar is it ? I suspect posting 600 'Hello World' posts will get me banned :)
I conquered Corfinium yesterday with just 41 casualties, just getting in a bit of practice. The AI played pretty well, retreating back to he square with his last two spearmen units. If not for that, I'd probably have gotten him with under 20 casualties. I really have to get used to playing large size again, I keep wondering where the rest of my troops are. At least I will not have the problem with overflow at the bottom of the siege towers.
When I look at the posts I feel most people do not understand how vulnerable you are with 1.5 and metronaval. Most of your cities do not have walls and the AI WILL make naval invasions. It is quite capable of blitzing half you cities while your troops are fighting over the border. Last trial camapign I played, the greeks managed to slip past my armies and take Ancona. And while I was hanging out near Tarentum, Carthage managed to blitz the west coast and I only caught up with right next to Rome itself.
Well, I hope I have not been too off topic. Back to work.

[econ21]

I will raise the issue of avatars with the admins, but I'm not hopeful. People can be rather petty and I suspect they won't want to field queries of "how come he gets to have a cool avatar with only 25 posts" or whatever.

Ignoramus asked me about what units we can recruit, so I posted a few notes on our unit stats in RTR in the Senate library. I may update it with the stats of our enemies (e.g. the Greeks) over time.

...people do not understand how vulnerable you are with 1.5 and metronaval. Most of your cities do not have walls and the AI WILL make naval invasions. It is quite capable of blitzing half you cities while your troops are fighting over the border.

This sounds excellent! To be honest, many folk complain how easy Roma is in RTR Gold, so it will be good if we have to keep on our toes in this mod.

[Braden]

Displaying a given Avatar doesn’t worry me by the way, we’ll just deal with it. As long as we remember to use our Avatar’s given name in our In Character postings (I can’t yet, haven’t got one).

As to the vulnerability – I’m playing purely to Character….as a archetypal, scheming, arrogant, Roman senator of the Upper House…..as such I couldn’t even consider that the greatness that is Rome could be vulnerable, even if I could consider such an ignoble act as a marine landing!

…..landing troops by ship! Unheard of!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

This is an intersting post about what playing with (almost) the same config is like :
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20310

[econ21]

I've been wondering about the mechanics of a mid-term session of the Senate. Given how well the current session is going, I definitely want to insist that we have a compulsory mid-term one.

However, I don't want it to slow down the campaign unduly. So I am wondering about:
(a) after 10 turns of play, the First Consul suspends play;
(b) before that, he gives two days advance notice of when his mid-term report will be submitted;
(c) as soon as the report is posted, the Senate will open for one day (24 hours) for the tabling of emergency motions;
and (d) it will remain open for another one day (24 hours) for voting on those emergency motions.

So basically, the incumbent will only have to take a 48 hours "time-out" from the game. That seems to strike a reasonable balance between the need to keep momentum going and giving the Senate a (small) window to intervene in the reign.

I don't want to put this to a vote, Senate-style, but would welcome reactions and hope we can come to a consensus.

I should also say that the Senate will always remain open for debate, but to avoid over-legislating, I want to restrict the tabling of motions to interregnums but with the safety valve of emergency motions in mid-term.

I was also wondering about some kind of "opinion poll" option, to rate the First Consul's performance in the first term. But on balance, I think that would be out of character for the Senate (too much like modern day opinion poll dominated politics) and anyway Senators can always propose motions of acclaim or censure if they want to.

PS: The admins initial response over Org avatars was encouraging - I'll keep you posted.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I was going to write it thought it was a bad idea, but halfway through I decided it was a pretty good idea actually. I'm with you. 24 hours is not much, but the debate should have been continuous since day one, so more time isn't necessary/

[shifty157]

Also remember that the senate may dismiss the consul if they wish and appoint a new one.

I do think that it may be a good idea that the consul should post a screenshot every four turns (1 year) to show the current state of the empire. Its boundaries and the locations of its armies. This would not require any commenting by the consul though he can if he wishes. Just a single screenshot to show the current state of affairs. It will also help the senators to prepare for the midterm session.

If not this then the screenshot should be posted in his two day warning post. Again to give the senators time to think and prepare.

By the way, how many senators are there?

[econ21]

Some interesting ideas - I like the idea of posting screenshots. I'm expecting reports every two days of real life, so including a screenshot in them would be nice.

I'm starting to cool off on the 2 day advance warning thing - the problem is that, with the possibility of other players fighting some battles, the incumbent can't actually control or predict how long it will take to play his reign. It depends on how quickly other senators answer the call if their avatars get into a fight. So a 2 day warning just means adding an extra 2 day hiatus in the middle of a reign.

Instead, how about:
(a) report every 2 days (minimum - one-liner; ideally a screenshot; everything else is icing on the cake)
(b) pauses after 10 turns & produces mid-term report (reasonably detailed)
(c) mid-term Session: two days for Senators to debate and draft emergency motions & one day voting
(d) player continues & we're back to (a)

Ideally, I'd be hoping a 20 year reign would span 2 weekends (with the incumbent trying to blast through 10 turns in each weekend), with a mid-term Senate imbetween.

Then we'd have a full Senate session lasting 5 weekdays, ending with a Friday election and on we go.

In the early game, we might be covering 5 years every two weeks.

Is that an acceptable pace?

I think it's actually the full Senate sessions - rather than the mid-terms - that will slow things down. But a slower pace is a price worth paying to get all 19 of us Senators involved in this PBM at the same time.

[flyd]

That's a fine pace, although I'm not certain we can always do 10 turns over 2 days. While certainly possible to do normally, battles by lower house members other than the consul would slow things down. If the consul and the senator involved in battle are both online and can play when the battles occur, then the delay would be minimal. But we have people from all sorts of different timezones, and if a battle came up at a bad time, it could delay things by several hours. I can see delays of more than 12 hours in really unlucky cases. And then if there are several battles, it might take a while to get through them.

Of course, that's not really a problem. But depending on what happens during a half-term, the time it takes to complete could vary wildly.

Oh, and by the way, there are 18 senators. There is an error in the senator list on the first page of the senate thread, where item 7 is missing.