The Elgin Marbles

[The Stranger]

i like to start a discussion about the return of the Elgin Marbles. i will use the best arguments pro and against in a essay for school. when you post here, it means that you give me permission to quote you. Thanks very much

[Duke Malcolm]

In 2500 years, the people have changed. Simply living in the same place as the historical building does not mean they are yours. The Book of Kells was written in Scotland by Scottish people, yet we do not ask for its return.

[Rodion Romanovich]

what are the elgin marbles?

[Duke Malcolm]

They are the marble friezes from the Parthenon on display in the British Museum in London.

[Avicenna]

Well, it is part of the nation's cultural heritage, and it should be returned. Examples include British and French museums stuffed with artifacts from Africa, China, Egypt and India. It is part of their identity, and is theirs by right.

[Aenlic]

If the British crown jewels were spirited away by thieves, whatever lordly title they might hold or colonial power they might wield, and then put on display in a museum in Athens, would the British seek for their return? Of course.

The long argument about the location of the Stone of Scone is another good example. Edward I stole it as a spoil of war. Four Scottish students stole it back in 1950. The British government found out and stole it back a second time in 1951. In 1996, the British government decided after years, even centuries, of pressure to finally return the stolen national icon to Scotland where it now resides in Edinburgh castle; although reserving the right to bring it back to Westminster Abbey for coronations. There are still some, maybe many, in Scotland who view Edinburgh castle as still too British a location as the headquarters of the British army in Scotland; so they want it moved someplace with no British influence.

Why then, is it different when artifacts of great historical, traditional and sentimental significance to other countries have been essentially stolen and put on display in Britain? Do the marble decorations of the Greek national icon of the Parthenon hold less significance than the British crown jewels or the Scottish Stone of Scone?

The historical treasures of the ancient world were systematically plundered by the powerful and wealthy of the 1st World precisely because the items had some historic significance in their original setting. They are one of the last vestiges of colonialism. They should be returned if so requested. Perhaps a deal can be worked out allowing a "loan" to the current location, with acknowledgement of ownership being given to the country of origin. The whole idea of "it's ours because we stole it from you fair and square" is ludicrous.

[Kralizec]

They were taken by some English Lord during the time that there was no Greek nation, only an area populated by a mix of Greeks and Turks. And he didn't plunder, he smuggled them.
Now that Greece is a proper nation, they do have a case for it to be returned. Moreso then for example Arabic Egypt for pharaonic artifacts, since there's a great deal of cultural continuity between old and modern Greece.

[Aenlic]

Perhaps I simply don't understand this argument of continuity of nationality in the origin nation of the artifacts. The British crown jewels were for the most part made upon the restoration of Charles II, since Cromwell had melted down most of the previous set. This makes them Stuart relics, doesn't it? And yet the current ruling house is German, changing the name from the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and the surname of Wettin to the House of Windsor because of anti-German sentiment during WWI. The crown jewels of the UK are English, or to be more exact Scottish and English, since they belonged to the House of Stuart.

Where am I going with this? The rulers of Greece and Egypt and everywhere else may have changed over the millenia; but the people of the country are still genetically tied to the original inhabitants at the time of the artifacts in question. So what changed to make artifacts which are a part of the history of those people less important simply because the rulers changed? The artifacts are of historical significance to the people, not just to the rulers. In much the same way, the British crown jewels are a national icon to the people of Britain even though the ruling family is German. Is the importance of the crown jewels to the British diminshed simply because the crown is German? Certainly not. So, why then is the importance of the Elgin marbles to the Greek people lessened? Why is the importance of the relics of pharaonic Egypt to the people of Egypt lessened because the rulers of the area have changed over time? For that matter, even if the entire population had been supplanted in the far past - with no genetic connection whatsoever - how does that make the artifact somehow more British or German or French or whatever than the location of its origin?

It's their country. It's their history. The artifacts belong to the people where they were found; whether or not those people are the same as the original inhabitants. The argument that the people in the origin locale are different now seems feeble at best. I read somewhere that there are more descendants of the House of Stuart in North America than there are in the UK. Shouldn't the crown jewels be removed to the location where most of the people reside who - by this odd argument of original peoples - have more in common with it than a German ruling family?

It just doesn't seem to me to be at all sensible to make such distinctions in order to try and lessen a claim to ownership; which, no matter how you dilute it, is still far more worthy than a claim to ownership based upon having it now, no matter how it was acquired.

[Watchman]

Ick. Nationalist sentiments. Vade retro.

[L'Impresario]

Ick. Nationalist sentiments. Vade retro.

Heh, well the vade mecum of logic says that works of art should be exposed in their organic entirety. For the more aesthetically minded, the parts will be better served by existing in a functional relation with the whole.

Also the greek government hasn't asked for a change in the ownership status, but for a series of loans to the new Akropolis Museum, with the hope that at some point in the future a more viable solution can be found, even the eventual restoration of the frieze and Akropolis. In return, a number of artifacts will be loaned to the British Museum.
That one can host tea parties in the Elgin Marbles hall is secondary to the issue heh

[Red Peasant]

I've generally been against this kind of sentimentalist nationalism, but if the Greeks feel so strongly, then maybe we should hand them over in exchange for a full set of virtually perfect Pentelic-marble replicas.

[Red Peasant]

Heh, well the vade mecum of logic says that works of art should be exposed in their organic entirety. For the more aesthetically minded, the parts will be better served by existing in a functional relation with the whole.

Also the greek government hasn't asked for a change in the ownership status, but for a series of loans to the new Akropolis Museum, with the hope that at some point in the future a more viable solution can be found, even the eventual restoration of the frieze and Akropolis. In return, a number of artifacts will be loaned to the British Museum.

It would serve no purpose to re-erect the marbles on the Parthenon, replicas yes but not the originals. Do you want to destroy them?
Also, if Elgin had left the 'marbles' in place, the aesthete would supposedly have enjoyed the decrepit state too which they would by now have been reduced. I think I prefer Elgins' vade mecum of aesthetic logic to yours, vandal or not.

[L'Impresario]

Ermm, there are parts of the frieze who didn't have the honour of being "surgically" removed by Elgin's crew. The British Museum isn't the only one to have parts of the frieze, but with their return, a great portion can be brought together again. There also parts (not of the freeze ofcourse) that can be reinstated, and large scale restoration works have been going on for quite some time on the Parthenon, but I mentioned generally Akropolis.

Now that the "safekeeping" is no longer of relevance - they didn't do a very good job mind you; too bad no French guy with a frieze fetish for villa decoration was around, Louvre would had kept it in a much better condition- it seem only logical to return them. The Akropolis Museum is already there, and many a politician would want to have a "contributed to the return of the Elginean Marbles" in his resumé.

BTW It´d be nice if Elgin could have saved the whole structure by transporting it to England, but then again I think it´d be too kitsch a scenery for british standards...maybe he should have stuck with the dwarves and save the all of us from such trouble.

[Red Peasant]

Ahh, so your sentiments are anti-British. That explains your stance. Understood, no problem.

[The Stranger]

thank you guys very much. i guess i have what i need. ofcourse continue your discussion

[L'Impresario]

Ahh, so your sentiments are anti-British. That explains your stance. Understood, no problem.

Yes, everyone has a favourite favorite colonialist/imperialist archetype

[Incongruous]

Oh, ha ha...
Yes how increadibly witty of you.

[L'Impresario]

Congratulations to you sir as well.
I'm always fascinated by such exquisite displays of sarcasm. Truly incredible.

Ofcourse one could leave out the suspension points, as it shows an underevaluation of the receiver's ability to distinguish between the various modes and figures of speech.

And if I'm permitted to stray a bit away from the subject, here's the official greek position on the issue:
http://www.culture.gr/6/68/682/e68213.html
The same site has a great amount of information, from a greek perspective that is.

[Watchman]

Merely imagining it has me groaning.

[Aenlic]

Ick. Nationalist sentiments. Vade retro.

Not in the least bit nationalist. The art belongs where it was found, not where it was taken by people who believe themselves superior to the people of the origin location. If anything, the nationalist sentiment lies with the outdated, racist and entirely unsupportable belief that the 1st World knows better and it's for the savage's own good.

[Watchman]

I don't really see what the White Man's Burden has to do with this. All the more so as AFAIK the Brits never tried to apply it to the Greeks anyway.

[Aenlic]

The whole idea that it was acceptable to spirit away the Elgin marbles, like a thief in the night, and then to have them displayed in a British museum while the Brits proclaim that the marbles are theirs by what amounts to a "right of conquest" has everything to do with it.

The Nazis used the same exact arguments when stealing the treasures of most of Western and Eastern Europe. And yes, you may now invoke Godwin's Law.

[Watchman]

So would it perhaps have been preferable if they'd take those along via the old-fashioned way, with fire and steel and lots of corporal harm being spread around on a very unbiased basis, this being the usual practice of aquiris quodocum rapis ?

[Papewaio]

So what state would the Marbles be in now if left outside with the acid rain?

[Aenlic]

Acid rain. Yes. Another "gift" from the West. The argument now becomes that the Elgin marbles were "saved" by the brave British? If we're going to resort to argumentum ad absurdum and post hoc ergo propter hoc logic (since Watchman is fond of inserting Latin ), then we can simply suppose that the West is saving the history of the savage poor peasants of underdeveloped countries from conditions which the West itself has caused.

[Watchman]

I don't see those poor peasants complaining about that, though. More like also wanting a car and a refrigerator and a TV and a PC and a... I might as well quote that brilliant opening line from Trainspotting here, couldn't I ?

[Aenlic]

Well you could, but a movie about heroine addicts hardly seems germaine; unless your point is that Lord Elgin may have been a heroine/opium addict. But I'm not at all certain there is enough evidence to make that connection.

[Papewaio]

Acid rain. Yes. Another "gift" from the West. The argument now becomes that the Elgin marbles were "saved" by the brave British? If we're going to resort to argumentum ad absurdum and post hoc ergo propter hoc logic (since Watchman is fond of inserting Latin ), then we can simply suppose that the West is saving the history of the savage poor peasants of underdeveloped countries from conditions which the West itself has caused.

It seemed at the time they were happy enough to sell off the marbles (in a black market no doubt) and that they could do nothing to protect them.

Nor do I equate where someone lives with having automatic rights to artifacts that were created in a region. I concur with giving back gene related artifacts to descendents of those people. On a similiar note I can understand ones who are the same memes wanting their cultural artifacts back... but modern Greeks are hardly into polytheism anymore are they. They share the same land coordinates but not the same culture or time frame as the creators of the marbles.

To use the arguement that someones ancestors where there and hence you own something is truly absurd. It could be extension be used to justify every colonial invasion of Africa as we all had ancestors there...

[Duke Malcolm]

The art belongs where it was found, not where it was taken by people who believe themselves superior to the people of the origin location. If anything, the nationalist sentiment lies with the outdated, racist and entirely unsupportable belief that the 1st World knows better and it's for the savage's own good.

The common idea of Elgin's contemporaries was that the Ancient Athenians were the Master Race. He almost certainly did not think he was superior to the Ancient Athenians.

Acid rain. Yes. Another "gift" from the West. The argument now becomes that the Elgin marbles were "saved" by the brave British?

No, just that by a serendipitous co-incidence, the marbles are in a better condition than they would erstwhile have been.

we can simply suppose that the West is saving the history of the savage poor peasants of underdeveloped countries from conditions which the West itself has caused.

I fail to see both how the West has cause the poor conditions and also how this bears any relevance to the issue at hand.

[L'Impresario]

Nor do I equate where someone lives with having automatic rights to artifacts that were created in a region. I concur with giving back gene related artifacts to descendents of those people. On a similiar note I can understand ones who are the same memes wanting their cultural artifacts back... but modern Greeks are hardly into polytheism anymore are they. They share the same land coordinates but not the same culture or time frame as the creators of the marbles.

To use the arguement that someones ancestors where there and hence you own something is truly absurd. It could be extension be used to justify every colonial invasion of Africa as we all had ancestors there...

If you 're aware of the actual arguments being used in the greek government's request, there isn't actually any such point.
A sample:

The return of the Parthenon Marbles is a fair request of all the Greeks. It is a request of all the people, regardless of nationality, who visualise the reunification of a mutilated monument belonging to the world cultural heritage. We are dedicated to our goal, the return of the Marbles, and we shall remain so. We have persuasive arguments for our just cause. We feel optimistic that in the end, even the most doubtful will be convinced, and will change their attitude forward the matter. In the meantime, with the creation of the New Acropolis Museum, which is a real masterpiece in museological and architectural terms, we are strengthening our arguments even more.

And we 're not talking about individual artifacts here, we 're talking of an edifice, an architectural monument.
BTW, there are still a few thousand polytheists here heh