Conquest of the Papacy

[pyradyn]

Does anyone Know what happens after you conqure the papacy? If it will continously try to re-emerge? And can you control the puppet pope directly declaring crusades and excomunicating who you want? Some of us wana reunite Italy even Rome and The Papal states


Thanks in advance

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

No news on conquering the papacy with force, but it seems that you can arrange for one of your priests to become a cardinal and then become elected pope when the old one "passes away." With your own agent as pope, it is hinted that you can get away with much more than normally allowed by the Church.

That's all we really know.

[pyradyn]

Ok ya I knew that was hoping I missed somthing :P. Does sound fun though also if you controled the papacy then you select the pope and there are no elections that would be kool too.

[Mooks]

Ok ya I knew that was hoping I missed somthing :P. Does sound fun though also if you controled the papacy then you select the pope and there are no elections that would be kool too.

That would be completely unrealistic though. EVen with how corrupt the church was back then.

[pyradyn]

Not really a puppet pope was established and the real pope fled to France. The nation who conqured cant remember who I think it was the Spanish they chose who was pope but held false election

[Furious Mental]

As much as I like complex diplomacy, I'm not sure I want something as complex as multiple popes.

[pyradyn]

Well not actualy having 2 popes just the ability of when you crush the papacy the ability to make some of the popes decisions since he is a puppet

[Watchman]

The French kings in practice held the Popes hostage somewhere in southern France (I can't recall the name of the place right now) for around a century or so. The power struggles between the Holy Roman Emperors and the Vatican saw several instances of at least two parallel Popes, one of them the Emperor's lackey. And so on.

Personally I don't think it'd be a good idea to try to put the more complicated Papacy-related politics into the game. I've some doubts of the system's ability to handle it in the first place, and what has thus far been told of related things seems to do the job passably well.

[soibean]

I think it was Avignone (sp?) and I would like having the strings to the papacy. Itd be interesting if the pope's influence actually carried weight in this game in national matters apart from crusades.

[soibean]

wow.... delete these moderator
I dont know why it tripled posted

[soibean]

and again delete this

[Watchman]

I think it was Avignone (sp?) and I would like having the strings to the papacy. Itd be interesting if the pope's influence actually carried weight in this game in national matters apart from crusades.

Avignon. Thanks. Mind you, those weren't exactly the first times the Papal prestige had been in tatters. Around the late 10th century or so IIRC Popes were also pretty much the lackeys of assorted temporal lords and changed nearly at will, and so on. The ecclesiastical bureaucracy, far ahead its time in organization, kept the the Church running pretty smoothly regardless though.

[NodachiSam]

I think it would be quite cool to have more than one pope. If you own such a pope you could conquer what you want and only be excommunicated by the one and not your own. When ever a new challenger pope showed up other Catholic factions would have to choose which to support and a bias to the former but also considering the strength of the faction backing the new guy. It would be complicated but fun.

I think this feature of having a pope might have been something conceptualized in the first MTW but never gotten around to. If you look in the tif files you'll see there are unit graphics for a pope agent.

[The Stranger]

No news on conquering the papacy with force, but it seems that you can arrange for one of your priests to become a cardinal and then become elected pope when the old one "passes away." With your own agent as pope, it is hinted that you can get away with much more than normally allowed by the Church.

That's all we really know.

sounds great

[pyradyn]

With the new units ect it could be possable to have two popes. One of them would sit in vaticant and the exiled pope would act like a priest unit since he wouldnt control and army and would always be open to assasination. Nations like when you vote for a pope would side with a pope and the siding nations if they conqured Rome would reinstall the exiled pope restoring the Papacy insted of the papacy popping up every few years with thousands of men. This would be more realistic if you have catholic nations reinstalling the papacies power. The nations that fallow the puppet pope would then listen to the crusades you announced. With the new AI and it holding a grudge this would work great for kinda spliting europe as it always has happend.

[B-Wing]

Actually, the two-pope idea seems pretty cool to me. I think it could work really simply. I imagine it happening in this manner:

First, a Catholic faction has to take over Rome. They would then have the option to oust the current Pope and install a "puppet" pope of their choosing. Then, all other Catholic factions would get a pop-up box asking them to choose which pope they will recognize, just like when two of your allies go to war and you have to choose which to remain allied to. Siding with the new pope could be more immediately beneficial to you, but remaining loyal to the old one could result in a huge cash reward if you retake Rome and give it back to the Papacy.

I don't know how historically accurate any of that would be, but I think it would make for some interesting gameplay, without complicating things too much.

[Watchman]

I'm under the impression that historically "parallel Popes" tended to be invested by powermongers specifically *not* in possession of the Vatican. 'Course, the TW system isn't really made to handle the complexities of medieval power politics so just tying the stuff to the capture of said real estate would probably have to be the way to go.

[Joshwa]

At the end of the day, the game is about going mental and doing whatever you want, so i dont think it matters if there was no real historical precedent

[Kralizec]

The original post in this thread begs the broader question: will factions reemerge like they did in the old MTW? That would be awesome!

If I let my fantasies loose on the dual pope system, a relatively simple system would be if you had 2 papal factions, constantly at war with eachother. One would be the "real" papacy, the other would be a 'WRE rebel' style faction like in BI. Once you get excommunicated by the former, your faction aligns with the rebel papacy and recognises its leader as the only real pope. Once you despose of the official papacy, the rebel one takes its place. The remaining clergy from the old offical papacy will go underground, and at a due time reemerge as the rightful claimants of the papal sea.

[Barbarossa82]

I kind of got the impression that the Papacy aren't going to be faction in MTW2 like they were in MTW1, just a part of the game mechanics, so maybe you won't be able to conquer them just by marching into Rome. I could be completely wrong about that, it's just an impression I got from some article or other.

[pyradyn]

Yea I did touch the borders or re-emerging factions but I thought that had been disscussed :P. And The Papacy is going to be a full scale military faction since it was in real life all the way up to the Italian unification in the 1800's and then gained its "indipendince" aka Vatican city when Musi. granted them it in return for catholic support for hos facist regiem.

[Bar Kochba]

sorry completely off topic but this thread has inspired me to re install MTW dunno why hehe just like u all to know

[Alim]

The whole papal elections system sounds like a nice new feature but I hope it will have an actual impact on the game. In the original MTW the two-warnings-at-a-time bug basically made the threat of excommunication nonexistant, and also after your empire got large enough you could afford to simply ignore the pope as getting excommunicated made no differrence at this point.
I hope the factoins can re-emerge again but if that is the case I also hope the re-emergence system is handled differrently than in the original MTW, where Egypt could re-emerge in Norway and where the re-emerging faction would have more and better troops than anyone else at this point.

[Watchman]

The only time I ever saw Janissary Heavies in campaign was when the Turks respawned into Syria with a bunch... That was something like two decades into the High period, too.

Anyway, being able to largely ignore excommunication if you're large and strong enough is pretty realistic. For many monarchs it was mostly a political and internal problem (and not always too great one either), and as stated before quite a few cheerfully warred against the Pope, practically kept him hostage, and generally failed to treat him with the respect and reverence due to the head of the Church. I don't think they drew all that much flak for that either back home, not counting opportunists of course.

[Bar Kochba]

yeah charles V caputured the vatican it was a bit after this time but these things happend