The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations

[Dutch_guy]

I disagree Consul,

I deem it in the best interest of our republic, and for that matter our warchest, to not attack Carthage.

I agree with Senator Braden to then go north, going north will eventually unite Italia - which I deem an important task - and will also not require the building of an immense navy needed for the invasion of Sicily.

Carthage will eventually be assimilated into our empire, but not now.

We still need their money, in the end they will finance their own destruction.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Thank you, Senator Dutch_guy. Based on your words, I am having the scribes assign you as the seconder of Senator Braden's motion. Please stop me if I have presumed too much.

[Dutch_guy]

I have no problem with that Consul.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: I would like to address further the key issue of whether we move north against Gaul or south against Carthage.

Gentlemen, I think we are all in agreement that eventually, we must do both. The question before us is one of timing and sequence. I also think we will agree that - with only one Consular and one Praetorian army - we do not currently have the resources to do both now.

My proposal is to take Sicily first, expelling the Carthaginians. There are three reasons for this.

1) Carthage is the greater threat. Gaul is divided by the Alps and the quality of her armies is more inferior. If we leave her alone, she will still not pose much of a danger. By contrast, Carthage has great economic potential and can pay for fine soldiers in her armies. If we leave her alone, she will have a dominating influence over the region.

2) Taking Sicily would mean we no longer have a southern land border. It is true that Carthage may still land troops by sea, but such operations are inevitably slower and more infrequent. I believe we could hold Sicily against sea-born invasion with a single Praetorian army. By contrast, consider if we move north and retain a land border with Carthage (she holds Messina, which borders our next target Rhegium). In such a situation, a single Praetorian army may be insufficient. It will certainly be insufficient, if we intend to take Syracuse and yet remain at peace with the Carthaginian provinces that surround it.

3) Sicily is a more attractive prize than Cisalpine Gaul. In particular, it houses Syracuse. As you will see from a report posted in the Senate Library, of all the ports within the grasp of this Republic, only Syracuse and Tarentum have the potential to provide the finest warships. We must seize and develop these two ports, if we are to build navies that can rival those of Greece and Carthage.

Incidently, my third reason is why I believe my trusted emissary, Sextio Antius, is quite misguided to propose the extermination and abandonment of Syracuse. The port is an invaluable resource which we must seize and develop for ourselves.

[shifty157]

I do not care either way whether we move North against Gaul or South against Carthage. Indeed I believe that we can do both at the same time. But this not the topic i wish to discuss.

I would first like to pur forth my motions.

First motion: The first step in auxiliary assimilation must be begun in all provinces we have currently taken (from Arminium to Rhegium and all in between) by the end of your term.

Second motion: The previous motion will be given priority over any other building project in these newly conquered provinces.

I was sad to hear that Senator Quintus has neglected this very important task which i believe is a great folly on his part. From the time we begin active assimilation of our new holdings, it will be 15 seasons until we can begin to recruit auxiliary troops from them and even more until we can begin to recruit true Roman troops from them. This is nearly four years and an incredibly lengthy process. Even if Senator Quintus began this process in all of the newly captured cities immediatly it would well into the next consul's term or even later before we would even be able to recruit troops from these cities. Senators, I fear our easy victory over Pyrrhus has given you an inflated view of the capabilities of our own military.
While you squabble over what great military power to attack next you forget that we can still only recruit three units per season in our core provinces which lie far from the front lines. Do you truly believe that we can sustain a war effort with just these three provinces. Indeed, it would quite literally take years to send these reinforcements to Carthage. How do you propose to support our armies without timely reinforcements and aid. It is an incredible folly to think that we can and perhaps only a true defeat will show you the truth in what i have said.

It is imperative if we are to attack any other nation to expand the support base from which we can recruit troops. Not only will the process of auxiliary assimilation increase the number of troops we can recruit but it will allow us to recruit them closer to our front lines. Suddenly it will not take us years to supply our armies with reinforcements but only a season or two.

Because this process is such a lengthy one and we will not reap the benefits for several years it is all the more necessary to begin the process now so that when the time comes and we truly need to assemble an army in a time of need we are not left utterly weak and exposed because we can only call up three units per season. What could we do if the greeks sent an army from their mainland by boat? There would not be nearly enough time to react to the threat. Our army would be a ragtag group of a handful of town garrisons constituted of the too young and the too old. Would you trust the fate of our empire in the hands of such an army when faced with the polished shields and spears of the greeks upon our soil once more?

I most certainly would not. But if we had the ability to recruit auxiliaries from all of our other provinces then we could assemble a true army in minimal time to turn back any more greek attempts ever.

I am sure that you all see the necessity of beginning the auxiliary assimilation of our new provinces immediatly. The sooner it is begun, the sooner we can reap the benefits.

So senators, before you fill your head with dreams of defeating gaul or carthage, ask yourself first how we can support such a war. Where will we draw the necessary forces? Rome, Capua, and Ancona can only take so much conscription before their populations will be depleted. Who will be left to farm the fields and raise the livestock when we have recruited every available man in Rome? You, senator? No, Senators, bring yourselves down from your lofty dreams and goals. It would be a grave folly to extend our borders much farther without a larger support base for our armies.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: Senator Publius Laevinius, your long term thinking is to your credit. At your prompting, I have begun building an auxiliary barracks at Arretium, the first province that we conquered.

However, I resent the charge of neglect. In captured settlements, this has been my preferred build order:
1. Temples, if necessary for loyalty (ideally I seek to be able to impose high taxes on all settlements, subject to allowing population growth)
2. Traders, for income and for population growth in slow growing settlements.
3. Mines, if available, for income.

After this, I am open to persuasion and, if there are other Senators of the same view as Senator Laevinius, I will prioritise auxiliary buildings.

Obviously, Tarentum is a separate case - as potentially the finest port available to use, I believe it is essential to work towards establishing naval facilities there.

However, I oppose your motion, good Senator. I repeat - we have the capacity to raise the core of a legion (1 velite, 1 hastati, 1 princeps) each season. But we do not have currently have the income to sustain such a level of recruitment. My building priorities will give us the income we need. In the meantime, I maintain that our scarce resources be devoted to establishing armourers in our Roman provinces, so that what troops we do raise have superior equipment to their enemies.

[shifty157]

I realize that for the moment three units per season is sufficient. But you must realize that our position in the world will be vastly cahnged four years from now and i dare sya that in four years we may be desperate for more troops on our borders. I implore you to realize that although now our armies may seem sufficient and able to handle what is placed before them, if we do not begin the process of auxiliary assimilation now, in four years we may find ourselves in very dire straights when three units per season are not even enough to sustain one front let alone potentially several. I do not pretend to say that we need the units now. I am saying that we WILL need the units in several years and I am saying that if we do not begin this process now we WILL be sorely sorry that we did not.

I would also like to ask that with the help of the consul, the librarians should continue to update our world maps and family trees.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]:

I would also like to ask that with the help of the consul, the librarians should continue to update our world maps and family trees.

Regrettably, the Senate Librarian is preoccupied with other duties. However, he will attend to this on his return.

However, members of the Lower House can always make the relevant inquiries themselves. [OOC: download the Senate278S.zip savegame from the Org uploader http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Up.../pbmupload.php
and take a look).

[GeneralHankerchief]

Senators, if I may direct you back to foreign matters for a moment. If I understand correctly, the city of Syracuse is now the only non-Carthaginian population center on the island of Sicily. It must be taken at all costs!

Nevertheless, I do believe that if we approve your motion, Consul, we are giving you a little too much freedom. Rome was not meant to have an absolute ruler. For that reason, I cannot second your motion. Instead, we take Syracuse, watch as the trade profits come rolling in, and strike when ready. We now have potential enemies on three sides of us. We must do everything that we can to ensure that the conflict is put off until it is beneficial to us.

Emergency Motion 8: The house proposes that Syracuse be taken as soon as possible. However, further conquest of Sicily does not happen, and good relations with the Carthaginians are maintained.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: I am sorry to have to rush my honorable friends, but I remind you all that the deadline for the submission of motions is 6pm UK time (only 10 minutes away). Any motion which is not submitted and seconded by that time cannot be voted on. Therefore, Senator GeneralHankerchief's motion urgently requires a seconder if it is to be put to the vote.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

My dear senators,

I is good to see such a lively debate. It shows your deep interest in the welfare of the state and does you credit. I would like to say I think both senator Publius Laevinius and consul Quintus are correct.

We will need to increase our recruitment ability as fast as we possibly can. The barbarians to our north are able to field vast armies should they wish. Their troops are vastly inferior to ours of course, but the simple process of attrition will be a danger in itself should we end up in conflict with them. The Carthaginians are the most powerful nation in the mediterranean. Should we end up in conflict with them, we can expect to see the equivalent of a consular army being shipped to Sicily every two turns or so, my military advisors inform me. We will hardly be able to counter shuch a threat, let alone prevail. The best we can hope for is a stalemate. However, to be able to finance this, we will need to improve our financial position. That is why I think senator Quintus has handled correctly so far. I do not think we can win a war in Sicily at this moment. If we strike at Syracuse and Messana, we will not be able to hold both, as we lack the troops. If we strike at Syracuse alone, we will place ourselves in a very dangerous position, as we will leave the route to our inner provinces open, and the moment we leave the city, we will lose it. So it would be a futile exercise and extremely risky as well. We will need to take a strategic location in the south or in Sicily which blocks the route into Italy and guard it with a consular army. Then we can continue the years long consilidation process in relative safety. When we are able to recruit in many of our towns in Italy we will be able to attack Sicily and win the war.

My suggestions are these :
emergency motion #8 :
Let us concentrate on building short-term finanical improvements, like traders and markets, and whenever possible roads. When our towns and cities are equipped with these, our first priority should be auxilia buildings.

emergency motion #9 : Let us try to increase our standing military to four legions.

emergency motion #10 : Let us capture Rhegium and build a fort at he entrance to Southern Italy and station a consular army there.

emergency motion #11 : Let us capture Rhegium and Messana and station a consular army in Messana.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: This session of Senate is now closed. No more motions may be proposed or seconded. Voting will begin imminently on those already tabled. Votes will be counted at 6pm UK time Monday.

Debate may of course continue.

[Avicenna]

More debate while I'm at the academy? This is not a plot to make my father lose support, is it?

Enough of idle chatter on my behalf. I support both motions that senator Aemilius has put forward, as if we immediately Romanise the entire Roman section of Italia, we will not have the money to recruit those troops! We must increase our economic output, gentlemen. The lands we have are larger now, and so our armies must keep up. In order to successfully counter the Carthaginians, we must be rich enough to keep sending men at them.

This means a powerful navy. If we declare war on Carthage, we must first make sure of naval supremacy. What happens when they destroy our fleets, and repeatedly launch naval invasions and blockades? Rome would be fighting a losing war, and unable to attack the Carthaginians on the other side of the Mediterranean. We must build and sustain a large fleet, capable of cutting off Carthago from her overseas holdings in the form of Iberia, Sardinia, Corsica and Baliares. The city of Melite can be easily taken due to its distance from Sicilia, and we will be able to sail an army there right under their noses.

Due to my policy, I must say that I do not fully agree with my father's strategy. One full praetorian army is simply unnecessary. We could station this Legio IV in Campania, where it will be able to react to an attack on the fort, on Rhegium, on Croton, on Tarentum, on Capua, on Paestum, on Corfinium and even an attack on Roma herself. Another Praetorian stack north of this, aimed at the protection of the Northern states of Ancona, Jeneuensis, Arretium, Ariminium, and eventually Bononia, Mediolanium and Patavium.

[flyd]

Senators, I believe we are now in a more dangerous situation than when Pyrrhus was still alive. If there has been one folly in the Consul's term to this point, it has been that he has not kept an eye on Carthage. An earlier report would have been essential to give the Senate enough time to debate an issue as important as this.

At this point, I am not prepared to authorize a war, and I believe that those who are are hasty in doing so. We have only now found out that Carthage even holds Messina, we know nothing about our potential enemy. We don't know the strength of their army in Sicily, in Africa, and the strength of that navy. We know nothing about the Gauls either, I don't believe a scout has ever ventured very far north. We don't even know what the Consul's plan is in conducting the proposed war and winning it. Indeed, I find it somewhat underhanded of Consul Quintus to himself propose a motion authorizing himself to conduct a war without telling the senate about how he plans to do that and why he believes that he can win.

I will not approve a war without being convinced that it is the strategically correct thing to do. I do not believe that we can go on the offensive against Carthage after capturing Sicily, because of the poor state of our fleet, nor that we can go on the offensive against Gaul while keeping a sufficient deterrent against Carthage in the Strait of Messina. Until I am convinced otherwise, I will approve no war.

As for the rest of the motions, they are far too numerous, and many are mutually exclusive, there has not been significant debate on the issues, and we are not certain of our next major step yet. As a result, I will vote against all motions.

Consul Quintus should finish securing southern Italy, and take steps to prepare us for war, not the least of which should be the gathering of intelligence on Carthage and Gaul, but also further supplementing our legions, and, most importantly, the fleet, and building neccessary infrastructure, as he sees fit.

[Avicenna]

Your words are wise, my friend. Seeing your stance on the prospect of war, should we perhaps recruit some young agents to spy on Carthago on behalf of Rome? I know of dozens such men in my home, where my father has left me to study. They would all willingly serve Rome. Even to the death, if that is what is asked of them.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, on the matter of constructing a fleet, some progress can now be made given that I have identified Tarentum and Syracuse as the two ports with the greatest potential for constructing advanced warships. This discovery is one reason why I think it is imperative that we secure Syracuse without delay. It is also a reason why I am voting against all the motions setting out our priorities for spending. In my opinion, we must prioritise neither auxiliary barracks nor economic infrastructure, but the development of a first class army and navy. That will require both armourers in Roman territories and large-scale investments in developing Tarentum.

As to the Senator's accusation of being underhand, I do not yet plan a war against Carthage. I plan to end a war against Greece. We must drive the last remaining Greeks from the lands that are rightfully ours - from Syracuse. But to do that will require marching through Carthaginian territory. All I ask is the authorisation to strike should my Consular army secure Syracuse and find the surrounding Carthaginian settlements lightly defended. If you refuse me that power, then our garrison will be isolated and vulnerable. Further, any attempt to withdraw our Consular army will again infringe Carthaginian territory. This will likely enrage our neighbours, prompting the war that the Senator fears. Stopping now and leaving Syracuse in Greek hands is to leave them both a valuable prize and a way to strike at us in the south at will. Geography dictates what we must do. Italy and Sicily must be secure from any attacks by land. There are no such imperatives to drive us north into Gaul, where further expansion will only widen our land borders.

But Senator Tiberius Coruncanius is correct on one point - I am confident that we can drive the Carthaginians out of Sicily. He asks for my plans and for why I think I can win. I say this plainly, with no arrogance: with a Consular army at my command, I can defeat any army that Carthage could currently field against us. Remember - they, like us, are only gradually mobilising their potential. And while we are able to concentrate almost all our force in the south, Carthage's holdings in Sicily are separate from her both their homeland and their scattered homelands. Just as Pyrrhus was only able to field half our strength in battle against me, so I believe I will be able to overwhelm the Carthaginians in Sicily.

As to the precise plan, the simplicity of the strategic situation allows only one possible plan. Having secured Syracuse, I would strike first at Messana, moving swiftly on Agrigento and finally Lybauem. Our victories would be swift - I believe only the latter city has any walled defences. Thereafter, we should hold. Build up our fleets and prepare to take the war across the seas to surrounding islands and in time, Carthage herself. However, the precise conduct of that wider war will doubtless be a matter for future First Consuls, other than myself.

I urge you, Senators - you have elected a warrior as First Consul: let him fight!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I would like to mention a correction, Syracuse is also equipped with walls. Furthermore, I understand senator Quintus's reasoning and do not think he will fail to defeat the armies stationed in Sicily, but I still think he will be overwhelmed eventually. Where will the troops come from to garrison the settlements he captures ? If he weakens the army by stripping units as he goes along, he invites disaster. Carthage will not stand idly by while we plunder their cities, they will send strong reinforcements. We are not able to do that, lacking auxilia and a navy.
The main threat is this :
If senator Quintus and his army are defeated in Sicily we will have no backup or reserves to counter the counter attack that will surely follow. We stand to lose all we have gained so far.
I counsel patience. Let us strike when we are ready. I counsel you all against war with Carthage. Her time will come later.

[flyd]

Consul Quintus, I applaud the decisiveness of your plan to drive all the way to Lilybaeum, but I ask you, then what? Without a fleet, you can go no further. At that point, the initiative will shift to Carthage, they will be able to not only attack your army but land anywhere behind you. I doubt the Carthaginians would agree to a ceasefire at that point, so I do not believe that this is a war that can be concluded at this time, which is why I believe that it should not be started. While Syracuse must be captured in time, it is at this time effectively shielded by the Carthaginians. When we are prepared to fight a war with Carthage may we take Syracuse.

[shifty157]

I support both motions that my father has put forward, as if we immediately Romanise the entire Roman section of Italia, we will not have the money to recruit those troops! We must increase our economic output, gentlemen. The lands we have are larger now, and so our armies must keep up. In order to successfully counter the Carthaginians, we must be rich enough to keep sending men at them.

Well, we will not have the ability to even recruit troops if we do not. So we'll have large amounts of money but no army to recruit with it. What you are arguing is shortsighted and simplistic. You fail to realize that the money for buildings is spent immediatly on their commencement on construction and not when they are completed. There will be plenty of money to recruit more men when the assimilation is complete. But do you propose to take on the entire Carthaginian empire on three units per turn? You may as well propose to lose the war before it has even begun. Our empire does not stretch across any bodies of water and therefore for the present a large navy is entirely frivolous and a large navy WILL drain immense amounts of money from our treasuries. If you propose such a navy THEN we will not have the money to recruit those troops which you propose.

Bah. In four years time when our empire is in dire condition because we cannot reinforce our armies you will all have wished you had begun the auxiliary assimilation of our new provinces now and not waited. Of course then it will be too late because at that point it will take another four years to fix such a grave mistake.

I can only hope that our Consul has enough sense to begin this process in earnest even though the senate in its shortsightedness has voted against it. The fate of the future of our empire has now been placed by the senate on a vague hope. I am sorry if i prefer to place our future in the strength of our armies. I believe that to be a little more substantial in times such as these.

Where will the troops come from to garrison the settlements he captures ? If he weakens the army by stripping units as he goes along, he invites disaster. Carthage will not stand idly by while we plunder their cities, they will send strong reinforcements. We are not able to do that, lacking auxilia.

The main threat is this :

If senator Quintus and his army are defeated in Sicily we will have no backup or reserves to counter the counter attack that will surely follow. We stand to lose all we have gained so far.

These are my thoughts exactly. And who can argue against them? We can not propose to go into wars against vast empires on three units per turn. It simply cannot be done. It is illogical. We must begin the auxiliary assimilation of our new provinces immediatly so that we can gain this capability as soon as possible. Without it our war effort is crippled. I urge those senators who have not yet cast their votes to vote in approval of motions 4 and 5. We must prepare ourselves for the future now.

[flyd]

Senator Publius Laevinus, I believe you overestimate the infrastructure needed to reinforce an army. Even if at war with Carthage, we certainly do not plan on losing three units every quarter! Our current production can reinforce an army and provide garrison at the moment, but you are right that the process of assimilation should be started, as it is a slow one. However, it should be started slowly, perhaps at one province, and not be given top priority, which should belong to the fleet.

You say that we do not need a fleet, as our republic does not stretch across any bodies of water. And you are right, but if we don't get a fleet, our republic will never stretch across any body of water! It would be like saying that we don't need a big army because our republic is small. But to enlarge our republic, we must first build an army. Just as an increase in army precedes an increase in territory, so must an increase in the size of the fleet precede the control of the seas. And if we are to defeat Carthage, or even survive against Carthage, we must gain control of the western Mediterranean.

One last thing I would like to point out, Senator, is a small error on your part in calling our republic an empire. Some Senators may take offense at that.

[shifty157]

One last thing I would like to point out, Senator, is a small error on your part in calling our republic an empire. Some Senators may take offense at that.

I am sorry. This most likely results from a difference in connotation. I believe any state regardless of government form that has taken territory through conquest and expanded its borders to be an empire. Perhaps others believe that an empire requires an emporer to rule it. This is not true. An emporer is the result of an empire and not the other way around.

Therefore i regard our nation as an empire because we have gained territory through conquest and not because we have an emporer (which we clearly do not).

I agree with your point as to the navies. We will need a large navy. In time. Not now. We can wait a small while for our navy. But we must begin our auxiliary assimilation now or otherwise it will never be done in time. And so when the time comes near to sail from Lilybaeum for Carthage herself we can begin the construction of our navy because that will only take a small amount of turns and at that time i will fully support you. Before then I believe that auxiliary assimilation of our new lands is more important to begin now.

To put this another way. If we began the auxiliary assimilation now and waited to construct the navy both it and the navy would be completed in time for full scale war in other lands. If we built the navy now and waited to begin the auxiliary assimilation until later we would find ourselves with only a large navy when the time came for full scale war.

[Ignoramus]

We have two choices:

I. To attack Messana and thus Carthage.
II. To attack Syracuse.

Noble Senators, those vile Carthaginians have driven out Italians. This is a shocking act of barbarity for a civilized republic as Carthage.
However, undue haste may be our downfall. If he advance without a fleet, we may be isolated in Sicily. And if we build a fleet, we may be overrun in Sicily.
I most humbly suggest that we declare war immediately on Carthage! Lest anyone say that Rome was a city of cowards.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: Senators, I hear many conflicting voices and confess I am somewhat at a loss to discern any consensus from our deliberations. I will have to await the outcome of the votes tomorrow evening before deciding my next course of action. But rest assured, if authorised to declare war on Carthage, I will not do so precipitously.

I would like to mention a correction, Syracuse is also equipped with walls.

I thank you for the clarification. I was not clear when I spoke - I was asked to give my plans for a war against Carthaginian territories in Sicily. Syracuse is held by Greece and I would take it before declaring war on Carthage, therefore I did not count it when assessing Carthage's defences. Indeed, the strong walls of Syracuse would actually be an asset in any campaign against Carthage in Sicily, as they mean that we could leave the city lightly garrisoned while we seize first Messina and then Agrigento.

On the concern about being overwhelmed by Carthage, recall that we are capable of producing the core of a Roman legion each turn. Such reinforcements would be sufficient, I believe, to allow us to garrison occupied cities without unduly depleting our Consular army. The constraint will be on finding the finance to be able to support such recruitment. However, I believe rapid acquisition of Sicily may decisively strengthen our economy.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I would just like to make a small, but crucial point which might be taken up in your considerations. Construction of auxilia is immensively expensive and timeconsuming. I urge you to vote to build traders and markets first, because they take a short time to build and are less expensive. They provide a deperately needed cash boost which we will need to build the auxilia buildings themselves while paying our troops. Also, the barbarian towns to our north are hardly profitable. The money we will need to spend to conquer, guard and develop them will constitute a cash-drain on our economy. The roads are vital military and also profitable. That said, the very next priority should be auxilia buildings.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Indeed, the strong walls of Syracuse would actually be an asset in any campaign against Carthage in Sicily, as they mean that we could leave the city lightly garrisoned while we seize first Messina and then Agrigento.

I would like to point out to the consul that the Cartheginians are reported to have massive warbeasts called 'elephants' stationed in Sicily, which are strong enough to bash through the gates of a walled city. They will thus not have to siege the city while our troops are occupied elsewhere, but can attack immediately. I trust you will not neglect this in your strategy.

[flyd]

Consul Quintus, my primary concern over the war with Carthage is that your offensive will become stalled once you reach Lilybaeum and the fleet cannot support your offensive to Carthaginian lands across the sea. This will give Carthage time, perhaps to mount a counter-attack, or to bypass you and attack Italy via the sea. I would be much more willing to go to war if your offensive did not have to stop in Lilybaeum, that is, if we had a better fleet. I do not wish to give the Carthaginians time. When they receive a report about your capture of Messina, I want you to be landing in Africa by the time their senate is done deliberating about what is to be done about defending Sicily!

[Ignoramus]

Coruncanius, how long will you try our patience! Carthage must be attacked now! If we linger, it will be them that mount an offensive.

[flyd]

Antio, we cannot attack Carthaginian lands outside of Sicily because we don't have a fleet. As far as Carthage knows at the moment, we are friendly to them. A large army stationed in the south will further convince them. If we capture Sicily, they will know that we're hostile, but we will still lack the ability to attack them further, and will have no choice but to linger! It is then that you should really worry about a Carthaginian attack. What you suggest is madness.

[shifty157]

I would just like to make a small, but crucial point which might be taken up in your considerations. Construction of auxilia is immensively expensive and timeconsuming. I urge you to vote to build traders and markets first, because they take a short time to build and are less expensive. They provide a deperately needed cash boost which we will need to build the auxilia buildings themselves while paying our troops. Also, the barbarian towns to our north are hardly profitable. The money we will need to spend to conquer, guard and develop them will constitute a cash-drain on our economy. The roads are vital military and also profitable. That said, the very next priority should be auxilia buildings.

But do you realize that since they are so timeconsuming, if we do not begin building them now then they will be completed much too late to be of any use against Gaul or Carthage. Our economy is sufficiently stable to support such expenditures at the present. Our army however may not be sufficiently stable enough to function without them in the coming years. You senators talk about how powerful Carthage is and difficult the war will be but you take no action to support and strewngthen our military for the long term. Every turn that we delay in beignning the process of auxilia assimilation is at least one turn in the future that we will stunt our own growth and expansion.

Senators let me also bring another point to your attention. There have been rumors from the north. From Aretium and Arminium. The rumors speak of Gaulish spies in our towns and villages making inquiries as to our militaries and garrisons and the locations of our major cities. I have given these rumors little credit until recently when i recieved word from our governor in Aretium that a Gaulish spy has been identified within the city. The spy unfortunatly escaped the garrison forces as is currently wandering within our own borders. The presence of this spy is a great disturbance to me. I believe it clearly displays the intentions of the Gauls. At this point, the question is not IF the Gauls will attack our land but merely WHEN they will be ready to. Currently we know nothing of what lies beyond the Gaulish border and I fear we may be shocked and horrified when we find out.

Indeed, war with Gaul is coming regardless of if we are prepared for it or when we would like it to happen. We already know that war with Carthage is also on the horizon. Could we support both fronts with three units per turn? Could we support two wars against two of the largest most powerful factions in the known world on three units per turn?

The barbarian war machine is already moving in our direction and it sits only a very short distance from our city of Rome. We must be ready.

[Avicenna]

Well, we will not have the ability to even recruit troops if we do not. So we'll have large amounts of money but no army to recruit with it. What you are arguing is shortsighted and simplistic. You fail to realize that the money for buildings is spent immediatly on their commencement on construction and not when they are completed. There will be plenty of money to recruit more men when the assimilation is complete. But do you propose to take on the entire Carthaginian empire on three units per turn? You may as well propose to lose the war before it has even begun. Our empire does not stretch across any bodies of water and therefore for the present a large navy is entirely frivolous and a large navy WILL drain immense amounts of money from our treasuries. If you propose such a navy THEN we will not have the money to recruit those troops which you propose.

Bah. In four years time when our empire is in dire condition because we cannot reinforce our armies you will all have wished you had begun the auxiliary assimilation of our new provinces now and not waited. Of course then it will be too late because at that point it will take another four years to fix such a grave mistake.

I can only hope that our Consul has enough sense to begin this process in earnest even though the senate in its shortsightedness has voted against it. The fate of the future of our empire has now been placed by the senate on a vague hope. I am sorry if i prefer to place our future in the strength of our armies. I believe that to be a little more substantial in times such as these.

So, you propose that we build up auxiliaries. Fine. But then, where will all the money come from? The gods will not shower money down upon us, and our current territories require more troops to defend them with. As our economy improves, we will no doubt gain a larger army to defend out lands with. The process of assimilation can then begin, when our economy is strong enough to cope with the burden of no more economical upgrades and money put into assimilation of the Italian League. You speak as if we are in desperate need of armies to defend ourselves from Carthage. Carthage is currently not at war with us, and so we still have time on our side.

I therefore propose that to strike the perfect balance, we should begin assimilation of any two cities the consul pleases with immediate effect, and improve the economy in the rest of our state to support this project.