The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations

[SwordsMaster]

Wow, fellow Senators, you sure talk a lot. Forgive me for joining such an advanced session so late, but I fear these matters are urgent enough for me to break my silence and my reclusion in the villa and occupy the seat my forefathers left me.

I second the second motion.

We need an army. I also believe that Pyrrus is not such an immediate threat, and that a legion should be sent south to dissuade him from entering roman soil, but let him turn his attention to the barbarian cities in the south: For our mighty soldiers it makes no difference fighting epeirotes or barbarians on the walls, and they will weaken each other in the mutual struggle.

I propose sending out Consul to annex the cities of Ariminium - a natural port and farmaland - and Arretium to the North to secure the access to Rome, and deny them from the destruction of the Gauls. With whom, I believe we whould make peace for now, until our III legion is raised. Then, we shall drive them north of the Rubicon.

Trade should be established with Carthage, Makedonia (a rival to Pyrrus in his motherland), and our other neighbours.

I believe I said enough, and our venerable president is beginning to doze off, so I will occupy my seat again, and let minds that like their responsibilities speak up.

[GeneralHankerchief]

It seems that the majority of the Senate does not share my thoughts about sending all three legions against Pyrrhus. I respectfully defer to them, and vote Aye on both motions of Tiberius. The threat is indeed imminent.

I just hope that Quintus, or whoever the commander of the first two legions may be, is up to the task. Mars be with him.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: By Jove, is that the time? I must find my deputy to take over this session....

Just a reminder, esteemed Senators. We have two formal motions on the table and others may be proposed until 6pm Wednesday UK time.

Formal voting will start after that time, using some voting procedures my scribes have yet to devise. Strange fellows, those scribes ... they keep wittering about "hanging chads" and other gibberish...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Aha. Well, in that case, my dear Speaker, let me indeed test the waters and retract my votes, since they mean nothing anyway.

Counter-motion: This house approves of the two motions made by Tiberius, but proposes that all three legions be sent to Southern Italia to combat Pyrrhus.

We protect the northen frontier by diplomacy, and create good relations with as many peoples as we can.

[TinCow]

Apologies Speaker, I was been praying at the Shrine of Bacchus this afternoon and I fear the formal... er... rituals may have resulted in a slight mental lapse.

It is a good thing that formal motions may still be proposed, though, for I have one that is of the utmost importance to our great city. This morning, as I was walking around Rome, admiring the wonders of civilized life, I suddenly realized that we lack formal institutions of education! Can you imagine? A people as great as us, with the prospects of rapid expansion and armed conflict looming, yet we have no methods of training the young in the ways of true Roman life! Are we to send uneducated farmers to lead our armies? Shall Rome itself be governed by illiterate prostitutes?

It is not enough to deal with the problems of today, we must also plan for the problems of tomorrow. We must invest in the future now, before it is too late! I propose that within the first year of the approaching Consulate, funds MUST be allocated for the construction of an Academy in Rome itself.

Motion 4: This house requires that construction of an Academy begin in Rome within one year.

[GeneralHankerchief]

TinCow's motion is seconded. I think that his arguments need no elaboration.

[flyd]

Be cautious, Senator. You wouldn't want to start building your academy only to have it burned down by the Greek. Rome is under threat. While having an academy is important, it is not urgent. What little funds we have must, regrettably, at this time be allocated to the raising of the proposed III Legion, and other military projects deemed necessary for the very survival of Rome!

It is for those reasons that I will vote against TinCow's motion, and encourage all others to do the same.

We may, and should, build an academy when the danger to Rome has passed.

[Lord Winter]

I second motion 1, 3(GeneralHankerchief's) and motion 4(tincows). Also my fellow Romans i proposes that we seek trade rights with all neutral powers. The Great legions of the republic must be financed.

Motion 5 This house requires that trade rights be established with the regional powers (including Gaul, Carthage, Macedon) in the next two years and steps should be taken to contact all other powers with the goal of trading and spreading roman culture to the whole of the mediterranean within 15 years.

[shifty157]

I support motions 1 and 2.

I do not support motion 4 as there are precious little funds to divert to an academy.

I would like to ammend motion number 5 to lengthen the period of time given to 4 years as I do not think 2 years will be enough with a single diplomat and I do not believe it is possible to train a second diplomat at this time.



I propose that we place a current standing legion under the command of Tiberius Coruncanius (governor of Ancona) to march north and unite the Italian states of Arretium and Arminium under the Roman flag.

[TinCow]

Fellow Citizens, I understand your concern when it comes to funding an Academy, but it is not my intention that our war efforts should suffer as the result of such an expenditure. I have funded a financial study out of my own pocket and the results have been as follows.

Given a normal tax rate, seasonal income to the Treasury will be an estimated 3,118. If high tax rates were imposed, seasonal income would be 3,636. With a normal tax rate, this means that the Roman treasury would stand at 18,472 at the end of the first year; 20,544 with a high tax rate. Even if Rome and all her allies recruited men constantly for the legions (4 Hastati, 4 Principes, 2 Triarii) this would only amount to 5,140 over the next year. This will be only one quarter of the Republic's Treasury!

I respect my fellow Senators' wishes to prioritize funds for the forthcoming conflict, but I assert to this august body that we have more than enough income to allow for both. Shall we simply store this excess amount forever? Nay! I know that we all expect a Consular construction program to further development both in Rome itself and in the Allied states. All I am proposing is that an Academy be the first priority when the funds are available. I assert to you that such funds will be available and that such an expenditure will not interfere with raising more Legions in service to Rome.

Vote in favor of the Academy motion. The sooner our children are educated, the better the prospects for our future. Need I remind you that several Senators in this very forum have children nearing the age of schooling? Will you vote to educate them in the fields? Shall they learn to plow, or govern? Do not forsake the future of the Republic for the sake of a few dinarii!

[Ignoramus]

I second the following motions:

MOTION 1: This house proposes that Quintus be given command of an army to unite southern Italy, by destroying Pyrrhus's army and then assuming control of the towns in the south.
Proposer: Tiberius
Seconders: Glaucus, DDW

MOTION 2: This house proposes raising a Third Legion.
Proposer: Tiberius
Seconder: Dutch_guy

MOTION 5: This house requires that trade rights be established with the regional powers (including Gaul, Carthage, Macedon) in the next two years and steps should be taken to contact all other powers with the goal of trading and spreading roman culture to the whole of the mediterranean within 15 years.
Proposer: Destroyer of Hope.

I agree to everything there except this: "trade rights be established with the regional powers (including Gaul"

MOTION 7: This house proposes that the third legion takes Arminium and Arretium, and that one of the two southern legions also takes Messena.

Noble Senators, what a waste of the Republic's funds. To build an Academy is far less important that securing our borders. Once Pyrrhus has been defeated, Messena MUST be taken, lest the might of Carthage controls all of Sicily.

I support trade with Carthage and Macedon, but not Gaul. Would civilized Rome trade with barbarians? Do you not remember how in the year 395, they sacked our beloved Rome? These desecrators of culture do not deserved to be traded with.

[econ21]

SENATE SPEAKER: Salve, Gentlemen! I see from my scribes that your over-night session has been productive. They have compiled a list of your motions and have posted it at the entrance to the Senate. Some still require seconders.

May I suggest that proposers are free to to withdraw or ammend their motions in the light of debates here. This might help reduce the number of votes I ... I mean my poor scribes ... must arrange. Specifically, Senator DDW, do you accept the proposed amendments to raise the length for seeking trade rights in motion 5 from 2 to 4 years and to exclude Gaul?

By Jove, has the Deputy Speaker fallen asleep?! Wake up, man! The sun has risen!

Now, let me see. What's this note from the scribes? Tut tut tut. They say some of you fine gentlemen, in your anxiety to protect Rome, have forgotten to format your proposed bills in the proper way. Please write MOTION #: Whatever... and do not forget the emboldening, italics... By Jove, have my scribes nothing better to do that whitter on about such things! Pyrrhus threatens Rome and they focus on fonts! Mr Deputy Speaker! Are you awake now, man? Good, well on your way to breakfast, give those scribes a tongue-lashing from me, will you?

Now gentlemen, back to the debates!

[Avicenna]

I second the view of Senator Ignoramus. Those Gauls should not be allowed to get their greedy hands onto our precious goods, to receive only filthy barbarian trinkets in return.

I propose that our economic strength be built up. An academy? We do not need that yet. There is plenty of time before our children grow up, fellow senators! Before then, what would it be for? Plebs? Plebs do not need an education, much less a state-funded one. All the plebs need to learn is to obey. Now, we need a strong economy to fund out military needs. We have enemies all around us: the Carthaginians may seem friendly, but are our sworn enemies. The Gauls... what is there to say that you honourable men do not know already? Those stinking barbarians will not be peaceful for long. The Greeks. Why, we have already decided to go to war with them! Even if we decided against it, those treacherous men are sure to attack Roman holdings with the army they have mustered. No, there are too many. We Romans are strong. We must rely on ourselves, not trade with others. What if we are at war on three fronts? Then we shall find ourselves with no friends and little trade. Our trade network must be built up from within, not from without.

Motion #6: As for our current military ambitions. I propose that we use the third legion as a defensive army, or to take the rebellious states to our South. The Northern states are wild Etruscans, and could do with a bit of warring with the Gauls. The Gauls will teach them obedience, and we shall liberate them in all our glory, becoming the saviours of the Etruscans. Once they are obedient, we shall be able to free up Legio III to deal with those Gallic troublemakers.

[Ignoramus]

I disagree, Senator Tiberius, what if those Gallic barbarians took Etruia first? Rome would be threatened, and a Gallic horde would be at the gates of Rome. No, we must secure the north.

[Mount Suribachi]

Good morning Conscript Fathers, the sun is shining bright and clear!

Once again I see that some of us are getting ahead of ourselves! The immediate threat is Pyrrhus! Everything is irrelevant right now - we barely have the strength to fight the Greek incursion, yet still some of you talk of going to war with a super-power like Carthage, or taking on the Barbarian hordes.

We are at war with Greece, so let us concentrate on the prosecution of that war until we are at peace with the Greeks. That may come several ways - they may come on their knees to us begging for mercy; they may accept OUR peace terms; or we will simply destroy them. But this war may be long and bloody, who knows who long it might take or how much it might cost?

As for raising troops - do not get me wrong conscript fathers, I am in favour of recruiting more soldiers, did I not say earlier in the debate that we should be looking to put veterans under arms as we currently have not a single cohort of triarii? BUT, raise a 3rd Legion? Senators, if we were to bring together all our troops under arms we would barely have enough to form one full Legion! Before we can even think of raising a 3rd Legion we must surely have 2 full-strength Legions. I agree with Senator TinCow, we must levy troops from our Italian allies to put flesh on the bare bones of our Legions.

Finally, I agree that we must build an Academy in Rome as soon as funds are available, our young men will be sorely lacking in edumacation without one.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]:The scribes have asked for a clarification: Senator Tiberius - there is already an alternative MOTION 6 listed at the Senate entrance. That latter motion seems to overlap considerably with your words. Perhaps you and Senator shifty157 could agree a revised motion?

Apologies for the interruption - back to war ... err, I mean debate.

Oh, what is now, you foolish scribe? WHAT!?! Senator shifty157 declared himself candidate for First Consul and you forgot to put his name on the list!?! Very well, very well. No harm done, I suppose. Sincere apologies to the good Senator, and to the Senate Librarian, for misinforming him. There are now FOUR declared candidates for first consul - econ21, FLYdude, DDW and shifty157. Nominations will close tonight at 6pm.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Honoured Speaker,
After solemn contemplation on the deliberations I accept the proposed amendments to raise the length for seeking trade rights in Motion #5 from 2 to 4 years and to exclude Gaul.

[econ21]

SENATE SPEAKER: Very good, Senator DDW - the scribes have amended the motion accordingly and Senator Ignoramus has been recording as seconding the motion.

The scribes have informed me that they have finalised the means of voting for motions, but that regrettably it will not be possible to vote on amendments. That means any amendments must be decided by the consent of the original motion proposer or, if rejected, should be formulated as rival motions.

The scribes also note that the voting procedures mean that it is logically possible for the Senate to approve two mutually exclusive motions. The paradox of voting, I believe the Greeks call it. Be wary of this, good Senators, for if the First Consul is given two incompatible directives, he will be more than justified in ignoring both!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I beg the senate's pardon by filling up their valuable time by proposing yet more motions for their learned consideration, but I find the current motions on the table do not encapsulate my ideas fully.

Thus I propose the following motions :

MOTION #8: This house approves of motions 1 and 2, but proposes that the third legion should be send north under the command of Tiberius Coruncanius (governor of Ancona) to invest Arretium and Armenium and guard our northern borders.

This differs from MOTION #6 in that we use our third legion instead of a current standing legion. I feel our first and second legion are needed immediately to confront Pyrrhus. A small, but critical enough difference for me to submit this new proposal.

[Avicenna]

As stated before, my colleagues, we do not have sufficient strength to fight both the Gauls and the Greeks. When we take the Northern rebel states, the Gauls will surely see a chance to snatch them up, as a legion is considerably weaker than the two rebel armies combined.

Senator Suribachi: A legion is composed of nought but half of the full strength of an army. Raising a third legion should hardly put a strain on our finances. This legion should take advantage of the weakened Gauls, when they have depleted their armies at the walls of Arretium and Ariminium.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

My lords, one true Roman is worth 10 barbarians at least ! I say our third legion should be more than sufficient to keep the Gauls at bay should they choose to invade from the north.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Noble gentlemen, if I may interject! Motions 6, 7 and 8 all seem rather similar and none has yet been seconded. May I suggest that the proposers work together to revise or drop their motions so that we are left with one or two that are seconded and are clearly alternatives?

It might also assist if motions be kept as simple as possible (e.g. no need to mention Messina if the issue is whether to attack the two rebel towns on our northern borders).

[Ignoramus]

After due consideration here is the ammended MOTION #7:

MOTION #7 This house proposes that the third legion takes Arretium in order to provide a buffer agianst Rome.

This change is that Arminium is left alone.

[econ21]

A legion is composed of nought but half of the full strength of an army.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: On a point of clarification, being something of a dabbler in military matters myself, I ask Senators to refer to my notes on historical armies posted in another place.

It reads:

(a) Full stack Consular armies - 2 legions + 2 alae
2 hastati, 2 principes, 2 velites, 1 triarii, 1 funditore, 1 equites, 1 general
+ 10 assorted allies (one slot can be a second general, a tribune).

(b) Half stack Praetorian armies - 1 legion +1 alae
1 hastati, 1 principes, 1 velites, 1 general, and 1 of either triarii, equites or funditore
+5 allies

So technically a "legion" is one cohort of hastati, one of principes, one of velites, one general and one of unit either triarii, equites or funditores.

Please note that by our conventions, if we plan to form proper armies, we are likely to have to call upon our allies for assistance before we can take more true Romans from their peacetime duties. However, given that we currently lack either funditores or triarii, giving priority to their recruitment would be not only admissible but advisable.

Apologies, dear Senators, I am over-indulging in military minutae. Let us abide by the above military conventions, but then leave remaining details of army composition to the First Consul. We do not need to tell him how sharp his swords should be.

[TinCow]

I will second Motions 6, 7 & 8. I am not sure which of these motions I personally agree with, but I would like to hear further debate on the matter. Therefore I second them, to allow a proper hearing before this body.

It seems to me that Motions 6, 7 and 8 are very similar in nature, but deal with three crucial differences in the same general topic. All three propose to use the newly raised Third Legion to protect Rome's northern boundry, the question is how this boundry should be guarded. For ease of understanding for the Senate, the difference of the three Motions seems to be:
Motion 6 proposes to keep the Third Legion in our northern territories and to use Arretium and Armenium as buffer states.
Motion 7 proposes that the Third Legion takes Arretium, but leaves Arminium independant.
Motion 8 proposes that the Third Legion take both Arretium and Arminium.

What say you, brothers?

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Ah, Senator TinCow, the scales begin to fall from my eyes!

In the interest of continued clarity, I call upon the orignal proposers of motions 6, 7 and 8 to say whether they will accept the good Senator TinCow's redrafting of their original text in return for his seconding their motions?

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I agree with my esteemed collegae's redrafting of the motions.

[Avicenna]

I would like to thank senator TinCow for kindly redrafting the proposals.

I second motion #5.

My esteemed colleague econ, my proposal of motion number six seems to differ greatly from Senator shifty's proposal. He clearly states that he wishes for the taking of Arretium and Arinimium. I, on the other hand, would prefer to take the Southern states, Paestum and Corfinum with Legio III.

I rest my case.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]:

My esteemed colleague econ, my proposal of motion number six seems to differ greatly from Senator shifty's proposal. He clearly states that he wishes for the taking of Arretium and Arinimium. I, on the other hand, would prefer to take the Southern states, Paestum and Corfinum with Legio III.

Once more, I am indebted for to an Honorable Senator for shining light for a befuddled old man.

Now that the proposers have assented, the scribes have redrafted motions 7 and 8 in accordance with Senator TinCow's parsimonious phrasing.

Although Senator shifty157 at present is not in the House, his motion appears little different from the revised motion 8. So in the interests of clarity, I am withdrawing his motion and replacing it with its antithesis:

Motion 6:This House to leave both Arretium and Armenium independent in order to serve as buffer states.
Proposer: Tiberius
Seconder: TinCow

[Dutch_guy]

I would also like to second motion number 6 for those who have ''forgotten'', this motion is written as following by our loyal scribes :

Motion 6:This House to leave both Arretium and Armenium independent in order to serve as buffer states.
Proposer: Tiberius
Seconder: TinCow

As I have said numerous times in this debate, and have gotten support from my honorable colleges, the present danger is Pyrrus. We must challenge him in the field with all our military might.

We must not make the mistake to let him fortify his position by taking a settlement so close to our current ones.

Obviously we'd suffer un necessary casualties were we to assault Pyrrus after he had taken up defensive positions in either Paesium or Corfinium.

Further more I would like to give my agreement to the following motions :

3,5 and number 6 - as stated before.

...

War is expensive, the longer it takes the more it costs. Even us Romans feel the pain of an empty treasury. That is why I propose to - instead of an academy - build up our trade networks. Be it with roads, ports or traders.


For I do, I know that 2 legions are enough to destroy Pyrrus in the field, money should be raised in order to spread our influence all over the world be it by sending our diplomats to the far corners of the world, or by sending our armies - but that's a matter of the future,not of today.