The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senators,

My final report is finished and I will briefly outline our situation in more detail.



The republic of Carthage is in dire straits as they are now at war with the kingdom of Numidia, Iberia and the republic of Rome. Even worse, they are losing ground in this war to the Numidians, their former vassals. Their only allies are Gaul. They are in deep trouble, but they have lost the disadvantage of a multi-front war.

The Gauls are allied with the republic of Carthage, Illyria and Thrace and at war with the republic of Rome. This war is turning our very badly for them. They've lost half of what they had in men and land.

The Greek cities are allied with the kingdom of Macedon, the kingdom of Pontus and the kingdom of Bactria and they are at war with the republic of Rome. They are doing very well. Their military is the strongest around.

The Illyrians are allied with the Ptolemaic empire, Gaul and Thrace. They are at war with the kingdom of Macedon. They are having a great time as they are slowly defeating the kingdom of Macedon together with Thrace and they are recovering their lost ground.

The Thracians are allied with Gaul, Illyria and the Sarmatians. They are at war with the Germans and the kingdom of Macedon. Thrace has become a local superpower and stands a good chance of defeating the Germans and the Macedonians. After which, who will be their next victim ?

The Iberians have ties with no one and are at war with the republic of Carthage, but they have become as powerful as Thrace. So now we have a superpower to our west and east.



As you can see, our territory has increased dramatically once again. Where we were once a small citystate, we have now become the most powerful state in our vicinity. Unfortunately, all this territory has to be defended and as such our military has had to increase dramatically as well.



And so, even tough we have invested 70-80 % of our budget in financial improvements every season, we can see how this has been affecting our financial situation.





On the positive side, our estimated profits are increasing once more.

Military losses on all sides :
Roman killed or wounded : 1339

Gaul dead : 8555
Republic of Carthage dead : 3662
Rebel dead : 250

Total enemy dead : 12467

I would advise any future consul not to lower our military complement. Seven legions is the minimum military force I would recommend for our nation's size and threats. Men will say we can disband some of the legions, but what if, such as is now occuring, a rebellion breaks out ? A legion might have to leave a border unguarded, if that was feasible to begin with, to march for months on end to reach the rebels. Also, there is the question of reserves. If we do happen to suffer a dramatic military defeat we will have the spare forces to cope with it.
We can not expand much further northward even if we wished, for the simple reason that we cannot build roads untill we develop Cispine Gaul. This will take a very long time to do. Without roads, a distant settlement would be almost undefendable as we could not resupply it reliably. We could expand south, but in addition to the forces required to capture territory there, we would also need troops to guard it. We can hardly afford to do this, except by abandoning our economic development. Here also the problem of resupplying our troops would be a major problem.
For those who would say that the sale of loot from the captured cities would pay for this, I agree, but then we would be left with another bunch of captured and worthless moneydraining cities. I would not recommend this. I do advocate a plundering expedition. Whether north or south does not matter to me greatly. Our more dangerous enemy is to the north, our more wealthy plunder lies in the south. I suggest we strike north.

The one thing I would like to make the senate aware of is that the republic of Carthage and the Gauls are not our greatest threats at the moment. Iberia and Thrace are.

I wish you wisdom, and I hereby reliquish my symbols of office to the senate. It was an honour to serve the state.

OOC : savegame 270-2-start.zip

[Glaucus]

I have just looked through The First Consul's report. Can you not see the massive Gallic army just outside our reach? As I am sure you can all see, the Carthaginian homeland is lightly defended. I am confedent that Quintus with only seven units could take Carthage from the enemy. It does, after all, only have a five unit garrison and is leader-less! I urge my fellow senators to support an attack on Carthage, it is clearly the easier and richer of our two prospect targets.

[TinCow]

I have just looked through The First Consul's report. Can you not see the massive Gallic army just outside our reach? As I am sure you can all see, the Carthaginian homeland is lightly defended. I am confedent that Quintus with only seven units could take Carthage from the enemy. It does, after all, only have a five unit garrison and is leader-less! I urge my fellow senators to support an attack on Carthage, it is clearly the easier and richer of our two prospect targets.

Clearly, Senator, you did not 'investigate' the area around Thapsus where Carthage has two and a half full Consular sized armies. Nor did you 'investigate' the Gallic territories, or you would have seen that other than the large army on our border, the Gauls have no other significant military force at all except for a large garrison in their capital. Nor did you examine our intelligence reports on the Gallic and Punic forces, or you would have seen that the Gallic army is composed almost entirely of unarmored, untrained spearmen while the Punic armies are largely composed of armored and trained phalanxes. Nor did you keep up to date on intelligence reports, or would have noticed that not only does Carthage have a general leading it's garrison, but two of it's defending units are elite Sacred Band infantry, whom even our own Triarii rightly fear. Nor did you even look at the military power chart that was provided by Senator Aemilius, for if you had you would have seen that Carthage has nearly double the number of men under arms as does Gaul.

Tell me Senator, when concluding that Carthage is a weaker and easier target than Gaul, exactly what did you look at?

[Ignoramus]

Most senators prefer wealth, even if costs the lives of thousands of Romans. The Gauls have been the major threat, as they have invaded Italy three times. Carthage, on the other hand, has only invaded Corsica. Which of the two, noble Senators, is more dangerous?

Could you post screenshots of the actual campaign map, instead of just the minimap?

[shifty157]

Our empire finds itself larger and more powerful than it ever has before yet somehow we are never quite powerful enough.

Now again we senators must choose who will lead us over the coming five years. These five years will arguably be the most difficult our armies and our empire has yet faced. No longer are we simply battling the far-flung outlying provinces of our enemies but now it has come time strike for the heart and strike we must.

I will here upon this floor offer myself to the will of the republic and her people as a candidate to become her sword and her shield as the next Consul.

I believe that it is best that we leave as few armies unused as possible. Our treasury is taxed enough that it does not need the burden of paying troops who sit and rest and do not work at their trade as every other citizen does.

Some senators believe it is best to strike the Carthaginians who seem beset from all sides. The once proud empire is crumbling and it has now been reduced to its core homelands. Yet it grips tightly to its once glory fights savagely with the hope of reattaining it.

Some senators believe it is best to strike the barbaric Gauls who we so recently pushed back across the Alps. They now sit and brood in their forests and it is true that they will never cease their attacks against us as long as we still control those lands which they claimed their own.

I on the other hand believe that we should attack both. Our armies are stronger and more numerous than they have ever been before and we possess more than enough men to wage a successful war on both fronts. It is very true that both enemies are exceptionally strong but our generals have already shown their prowess in battle against more enemy armies than I care to remember and I believe them and the men under their command more than able to take the war to the enemy heartlands.

You may ask how I propose to invade Carthage with only a fleet of eight ships. I very well know that eight units cannot hold out against forty. These armies of Carthage however are stationed around their capital where they rightly believe our blow will fall. In this assumption they are sorely mistaken. We shall sail from Melite directly south to the outlying Carthaginian provinces. Eight ships can ferry an entire consular army from Melite to Afrika before the massive armies stationed around Carthage can even march halfway to our camp. From there it is a simple march with a consular army up the coast defeating any armies and conquering any cities that we come across until finally the Carthaginian home and fortress of Carthage herself is made subject to our battering rams. Indeed such an endevour would take quite a bit of time but we are not unaccustomed to patience and perseverance

In Gaul I would propose a modest conquest. The pace of the invasion would be cautious and with great care as we could not afford a devastating Gaulish ambush. Beyond the Alps, the forests are vast and thick providing ample opportunity for hiding. Our loyal spies will be our crutch in this treacherous land as we advance from city to city as frog would hop from pad to pad.

Our main thrust would be against the Carthaginians with our invasion of Gaul being supplementary and not entirely necessary. New lands will of course brings more incomes into our treasury and this is something we very much need. Within Italy we must continue to build up our newly acquired lands in the North as they have yet to reach their full potential.

Note that I will note increase the size of our military unless an extreme need arose. I would continue to recruit troops only to maintain the current strength of our forces and to garrison any newly captured settlements.

You perhaps may be wondering what makes me as a man better suited for our situation than other candidates. Militarily I have fought and won against both Carthage and the Gauls. I have seen with my own eyes the capabilities of both of our foes. I have heard the horrible Gaulish warchant issuing from the depths of the forest that is said to have driven lesser men insane. I have charged down the glittering spears of the Carthaginian phalanx. Financially I am still widely regarded as without peer in all our empire in the area of successful management. Where some men have spent their entire lives with only a sword in their hand and others have spent theirs with only a pencil, I have spent mine with both and now I am offering my services to the republic that I may benefit it and her people.

[flyd]

What follows is the manifesto of Tiberius Coruncanius.

I will once more offer the Senate the option of an invasion of Africa. The fleet needs to be augmented with a few warships, but is nearly ready in its current state. A force of consular army strength in Africa would be more than sufficient to defeat the Carthaginians, and we already have sufficient troops to assemble such a force without depleting garrisons. An invasion of Africa would warrant a halt in the Gallic offensive, for it is never wise to fight a two-front war, and Masilia is the perfect place to do that. If the Gauls wish to accept a ceasefire, then so should we, but that is merely a formality. In any case, a sufficient defensive force would be left at Masilia. Now you know what I would do if I were elcted Consul, and I will now move on to explaining why I believe it is the correct course of action.

The Gauls are no longer a significant threat. They have been pushed far from Rome, across the mountains. Their armies are of low quality, we destroyed most of them, and we have an easily defensible position. Furthermore, there is nothing of great value in transalpine Gaul, and to get anything out of those settlements, we would have to spend much money developing them. For those reasons, it is no longer wise to expand into Gaul, and is very easy to securely hold the border.

The Carthaginians are completely different, however. Their navy still freely sails the seas. As we have seen, they can land large armies wherever they want. Because they're unambitious and not very tactically smart, they chose to do that in Corsica, but they could have just as easily done that in Italy or Sicily. Their armies are of high quality and numerous, and we have a completely undefensible position, as we cannot challenge them on the seas. Now, one thing we could do is destroy their navy, but that would be expensive, risky, and time-consuming, as we'd need a mighty fleet. However, we already have a mighty army, and we would instead do better to attack them on land. Furthermore, African settlements are of much greater value. They would be easier to develop, and have potential for trade.

As far as other things go, I would make a maximum effort to upgrade the fleet. Thanks to Aemilius, we have the necessary facilities in Syracuse. I would put them to work immediately. With only Syracuse working, the fleet upgrade process will be slow, but that will mean that our economy won't be suddenly drained. In time, we will have a powerful fleet. However, I do not plan to postpone the invasion due to a lack of heavy ships.

We have dealt with Gaul, and it is now time to stike at Carthage. But we must not merely make a half effort. Our strike must be decisive, and we must not waste further resources on the Gauls. I believe we can achieve a swift victory over Carthage.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: It is good once again to see such clear differences in the programmes for candidates for First Consul.

On another matter, after reflection, I have decided to ammend:

Motion #5.1: This House grants First Consul Lucius Aemilius a triumph. This is on account of his successful conquest of Cisalpine Gaul, Massilia and the island settlements of Melte, Aleria and Caralis with relatively little loss. It notes the generous role of the First Consul in providing opportunities for other members of the Lower House to give battle on Rome's behalf.

If anyone is unconvinced by this motion, I urge them to look at the record of battles under the First Consul's rule. Our forces have slain over 12,000 enemies - twice what was done under my own rule. The fact that the First Consul often delegated command is even more to his credit, as it ensures that we have a cadre of battle hardened senior generals to call upon in years to come.

I hope Senator Verginius will still second this motion.

I still require an additional seconder for both motion 5.1 and 5.2.

[Glaucus]

Tell me Senator, when concluding that Carthage is a weaker and easier target than Gaul, exactly what did you look at?

I have read the report from Decius Curtius, our spymaster in Afrika. He has pointed out that if we delay, Carthage will only grow stronger. Why should we not attack her now, while she is broken apart by wars in Numidia and Iberia? Carthage is a strong nation; if we delay she will grow stronger and take Iberia and Numidia. Would you rather attack Carthage now, while she is still small, or later, when she has all of Afrika and Iberia under her control? Just because Carthage is powerful does not mean we should not fight her. In fact, it should push Carthage up on our lists of possible conquests. Are my fellow representatives of Rome frightened by a challenge? If so then attack Gaul, and impose your will on weak barbarians. If you want glory and more power for the Republic, then we must take Carthage and teach her citizens the honor of Romans. I urge my fellow Senators to support motion # 5.2, it is the most sensible motion tabled. Carthage is home to far larger cities then Gaul, I say let Gaul sit beyond the Alps, let Gaul fight Spain and threaten Carthage even more. Carthage is our strongest adversary; we must strike hard and fast as soon as possible!

Senator, why would we send our legions into Gaul, when a larger more powerful foe is sitting at our backdoor?

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senator Publius Laevinius, that is truly a magnficent gift to this house. I only fear that it will incite future consuls to reckless conquests in order to see their colour on that map. Nevertheless, I would ask our senate librarian to find an hornoured spot for this tapestry in the senate library.

I applaud the quality of the men who have stepped forward.

Augustus Verginius, the coolheaded general who survived Lucco's ambush. He plans no more conquests, but punitative expeditions that will fill our empty coffers and submit the Gauls. I see his wisdom, but worry about wanton slaughter.

Tiberius Coruncanius, the man who halted the Gaul advance into our lands at Arretium. He thinks it is time to overthrow Carthage, but sees no need to go to war in Gaul. A middle position between the other two candidates and realistic.

Publius Laevinius, the stalwart commander who crushed Meriadoc at Massilia. He plans the conquest of Carthage, and Gaul as well. I applaud his zeal and ambition, but doubt the feasability.

The truth is, my lords, that each of these candidates agendas is possible. Our army is at peak strength, and our economy weak, but it is still growing.

The ambitious plans of Publius Laevinius will break our fragile economy. The conquest of Carthage will be expensive, and if we are victorious, the rebellious cities we will have conquered will offer but little revenue due to the high unrest which will plague them. At the same time undertaking the conquest of Gaul borders on lunacy. Our armies will spread, weaken and die in the vastness of the Gaul forests or across the sea in Afrika. We will be unable to supply them decently and will run risks of rebellion in the provinces left undefended. After five years, our economy will be in shambles and our armies weakened even if we succeed in all these conquests.

Tiberius Coruncanius is a better planner. He wants to strike a bold and decisive strike to shatter Carthage forever. We can do this, my lords, but I think it is a futile waste of our menpower and resources. The logistics will be very complex, dangerous and expensive. We will need to send vast amounts of troops to secure victory and who will guard our homeland in the meantime ? We cannot afford yet more troops.

So, with reservations, I support the wisdom of Augustus Verginius, who understands that we have much more to fear from Iberia and Thrace than we have from Carthage. He sees the moment is NOW to make the Gauls submit to our power. Hundreds of Romans have lost their lives in the wars against Gaul. Will we neglect their sacrifce to go after Carthage, while the hordes gather once more ?
NO, I say ! Let Augustus Verginius have his way and pulverize the remains of the Gaul nation ! Eventually, they will submit to a protectorate and the threat will be ended forever. We will not need to conquer their useless and undefendable lands, and they will pay protection money to Roma. While he is doing this, he will strengthen our country. We have five years of carefree time now. It will most likely not come quickly again. Let us use this time to make our country the strongest in Europe.
The one man who sees the wisdom of this course of action is Augustus Verginius. I will stand by him, and encourage all of you to do the same for the sake of our country, not for the sake of glory on the battlefield.



I would also like to ask the senate speaker to summarize all the motions and their current supporters for the sake of encouraging debate.

Hail Roma !

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]:

I would also like to ask the senate speaker to summarize all the motions and their current supporters for the sake of encouraging debate.

Normally the scribes will only summarise motions that have the requisite two seconders. However, given that none of the motions (apart from 5.1) have two seconders, I have complied with your request for the reason you give. The list of motions may be found in the first post in this thread.

[shifty157]

The ambitious plans of Publius Laevinius will break our fragile economy. The conquest of Carthage will be expensive, and if we are victorious, the rebellious cities we will have conquered will offer but little revenue due to the high unrest which will plague them. At the same time undertaking the conquest of Gaul borders on lunacy. Our armies will spread, weaken and die in the vastness of the Gaul forests or across the sea in Afrika. We will be unable to supply them decently and will run risks of rebellion in the provinces left undefended. After five years, our econmy will be in shambles and our armies weakened even if we succeed in all these conquests.

I dont believe so.

I believe senator that your strategy for expansion was rather cautious. You expanded only when knowing full well that victory was guaranteed. While this is a commendable strategy it is by no means necessary. We have all seen and heard of what our armies and generals can accomplish and I see no reason for this trend to suddenly stop. Our current standing armies are more than capable of defeating the standing armies of both Gaul and Carthage at the same time.

I also realize that despite your optimism the gauls and the carthaginians will continue to attack our lands on a regular basis. You back a candidate who proposes raiding into Gaulish territory but tell me how much gold do you really believe this will bring to our treasury? The Gauls control only six more cities worth conquering. Of these only three of them are within reach to raid and then return to the safety of the Alps in a reasonable amount of time. Granted the first time you raid these cities you may carry away thousands of denarii in gold but what after that? Will you continue to raid the same cities over and over and every time after bringing home only a few coins? The Gauls will not stand idly by. They will fight our armies and ambush them and wittle them down every time. And for what? To give the treasury a single quick golden high that disappears thereafter? The gauls cannot rebuild their cities overnight. Indeed they probably will not be able to rebuild them to their current level until well after this coming five year term.

So you raid the cities once and you get your gold. The Roman casualties are justifiable. Then what? Raid the burnt out ruins again taking more casualties every time? Will you bring the ashes back to Rome and fill the treasury with them?

The Gauls will not submit to becoming a protectorate just as we would never subject ourselves to such humiliation. The only way to eliminate the Gaul threat permanently is to crush it and take its land. Or would you prefer every Consul to defend the Alps against the constant Gaul attacks to the end of time? I dont know about the other senators but I would quickly grow weary of such constant attacks and casualties without any effort to alleviate the situation.

In short this strategy of raiding the Gaulish towns would work well for perhaps a year at which point it would fail miserably because there would be no more towns left worth raiding. It is the same with farmers. If they planted too many crops on their land they may reap the rewards of an exceptionally bountiful harvest the first year but for the next several years the land will be wasted and the farmer will be unable to harvest any more crops from it. So while the farmer enjoys the plenty the first season, he suffers for years afterward while his neighbor who takes care to regulate his planting, though he does not reap such large rewards immediatly, finds that a normal harvest every year is much more desirable and much more lucrative.

[Avicenna]

Father, I congratulate you in managing to get some skilled Greeks to put together this masterpiece! This will surely show the world that even in so new an art is Rome the greatest!

Back to business. Firstly, to answer my father's query. I believe Brother-in-law Verginus' aim is to cripple Gaul and force a protectorate status, which they might we accept. You must remember, my father, that these savages have not the honour of us Romans, and should not be viewed as equals. Even if they do not submit, it will destroy another threat to our security, and enable us to use more of our armies against the mighty Phoenicans. The world must first see that stinking barbarians will be crushed, and then they shall fear us. In this fear, we will ben able to stride into the Phoenican heartlands, to take down the quivering Carthaginians when the time comes.